19 Apr 2009: PSV - Ajax

[Monkey Tonk]

The problem with Ajax is that a culture of winning has been replaced by a philosophy of winning. A culture of winning is seen in an over-my-dead-body mentality on the pitch. Nothing else counts but winning. That is the all-or-nothing, life-or-death reality, and everything must make way for it. A philosophy of winning is more concerned with creating the circumstances for success, as if we can think ourselves back to the top. This is the soft and forgiving approach. Don't hold players accountable, because they have to feel just 'right', otherwise they can't perform. If the team doesn't win, we'll get another coach, or change the club structure. The result is a team that's consistently full of potential, and consistently falls short of that potential. The philosophy believes that, once all the pieces fall in place, another great team will rise from these miserable ashes. But that intellectual approach overlooks the most important part. Heart.

If you could look deep into the players hearts, don't expect to see much red-and-white there. The prevailing colors are blue-and-red, or plain white, or red-and-black. Sure, they care about an Ajax-championship. Just not a whole lot. The real prizes, the true winning tickets give access to stadiums in Spain and Italy. That's what they're playing for. And as long as that doesn't change, you may as well kiss championships goodbye. Because the players will always stop short of what it takes to really win.

[jamie]

It does, indeed.
(...)
* I don't even really want to finish second and play four qualifiers in the summer (if we don't collapse in those qualifiers, we'll get murdered in the CL itself, so what's the whole point of even wanting it in the first place?)
Period.
K.

I have to disagree : the CL in its current format and in the current state of international football means 8 top clubs totally out of reach, 8 second some of them that can be fought, and 8 thirds that we would have to beat, the 8 fourths are generally crap from nowhere.
So the CL means lots of money for the club, a little chance to go through, and if not a good chance to play the UEFA cup.
We need this.

Philippe, I slightly disagree with you - Champions League - that is - 8 clubs totally out of reach as you said ,8 clubs we would need three times the luck we had against Fiorentina to salvage something out of them, 8 clubs that absolutely have the capacity to beat the shit out of us and 8 clubs more or less at our level and, as we have seen somewhat many times also capable of beating us (Slavia Prague, FCK and so on)

I absolutely agree with you. This current squad is not Champions League worthy. Over the years we keep investing heavily in our offensive players however year after year we play with a crappy defense. The last time that we had a good defense was probably when Chivu was still playing for Ajax. Imagine what Liverpool, Chelsea or Barcelona would do to our back four.

[Kowalczyk]

I absolutely agree with you. This current squad is not Champions League worthy. Over the years we keep investing heavily in our offensive players however year after year we play with a crappy defense. The last time that we had a good defense was probably when Chivu was still playing for Ajax. Imagine what Liverpool, Chelsea or Barcelona would do to our back four.

Yeah, but please keep in mind that we're normally a seeded team in the qualifiers, and in pot 2 or 3 for the group draw. Which means that we won't just meet opponents like Liverpool or Chelsea or Barcelona, but also weaker opponents that we should comfortably beat, such as FC Copenhagen, Maccabi Tel-Aviv, Club Brugge or Slavia Prague, for instance.



K.

[jamie]

I absolutely agree with you. This current squad is not Champions League worthy. Over the years we keep investing heavily in our offensive players however year after year we play with a crappy defense. The last time that we had a good defense was probably when Chivu was still playing for Ajax. Imagine what Liverpool, Chelsea or Barcelona would do to our back four.

Yeah, but please keep in mind that we're normally a seeded team in the qualifiers, and in pot 2 or 3 for the group draw. Which means that we won't just meet opponents like Liverpool or Chelsea or Barcelona, but also weaker opponents that we should comfortably beat, such as FC Copenhagen, Maccabi Tel-Aviv, Club Brugge or Slavia Prague, for instance.



K.

LOL, put we have not even been able to beat teams like that in recent years. That is my point. If we can not even beat teams like that then what the heck would we do against the big teams. If PSV is able to beat us 6-2 then I am terrified to think what Barca or ManU could do to us.

[aveslacker]

I absolutely agree with you. This current squad is not Champions League worthy. Over the years we keep investing heavily in our offensive players however year after year we play with a crappy defense. The last time that we had a good defense was probably when Chivu was still playing for Ajax. Imagine what Liverpool, Chelsea or Barcelona would do to our back four.

Yeah, but please keep in mind that we're normally a seeded team in the qualifiers, and in pot 2 or 3 for the group draw. Which means that we won't just meet opponents like Liverpool or Chelsea or Barcelona, but also weaker opponents that we should comfortably beat, such as FC Copenhagen, Maccabi Tel-Aviv, Club Brugge or Slavia Prague, for instance.



K.

LOL, put we have not even been able to beat teams like that in recent years. That is my point. If we can not even beat teams like that then what the heck would we do against the big teams. If PSV is able to beat us 6-2 then I am terrified to think what Barca or ManU could do to us.

What about Fiorentina? If there's one relative bright spot it is that we had a much better run in Europe and really should have beaten OM (currently the top side in France, iirc).

Ajax fans are amazing. When the team is winning and looking good, they're not impressed. When they lose, it's all about how much the team sucks.

Look: Ajax hasn't been a good side in at least five years. It is ridiculous to expect that to change overnight for any reason, regardless of who the coach is. However, there are definite signs of improvement this year: the fighting instinct the club displayed in games against Fiorentina and OM, or at Twente. The return of some kind of stylish play, such as against Willem II.

One bad result doesn't change that. If the team is in a funk for the next few games, then one might conclude that all the good results of recent weeks were an anomaly. But the team has had bad patches this season and has recovered. I certainly hope it does so again.

Unlike the Koeman, Blind, Koster and Ten Cate eras, I can honestly say that I feel positive about this club and the direction we're headed. As always if I'm wrong I'll be happy to eat crow (like I've done many times in the past).

[jamie]

You are talking about one bad result... there have been plenty of bad results this season. I will support my team through thick and thin however I do feel that I should be able to discuss Ajax freely as I please.

I have personally not seen any real improvements to the squad. I don't think that van Basten is the right coach for Ajax as I don't think that he is a good coach to start off with. Just an example.. When a player has the ball then he should automatically know to which players he can pass the ball. This season I have just seen too many games where players just don't have a clue what to do with the ball. I know that the 95 team consisted of some remarkable players but when you look back at some of their games, players didn't have to think about their next move. Everything seemed to go automatically and smooth.

Fiorentina was a great game but this Ajax reminds me of the Dutch squad under van Basten, There were a few great games but on the other side there were also some really horrible games., There is no consistency in the teams that van Basten coaches. Perhaps he should have a long look in the mirror??

[DanK]

...

One bad result doesn't change that. If the team is in a funk for the next few games, then one might conclude that all the good results of recent weeks were an anomaly. But the team has had bad patches this season and has recovered. I certainly hope it does so again.

Unlike the Koeman, Blind, Koster and Ten Cate eras, I can honestly say that I feel positive about this club and the direction we're headed. As always if I'm wrong I'll be happy to eat crow (like I've done many times in the past).

Thank you for actually writing something even slightly positive. Yeah we got hammered, this shit happens. We hammer PSV, they hammer us. Its a season, not a one off game.

I also would rather finish 2nd than 3rd. How is this team ever going to improve if we never get to play Europe's top tier? All I am reading is how worried of the beating we might get, and then also how this team shows no fighting spirit, blah-blah-blah.

Maybe the team are reading the comments here and the negativity is viral.

[jamie]

But my comments are not based on only this game against PSV. Sure it is great to be positive and I am each time before every new game. However there have just been too many games this season when I was just appalled by the poor level of performance by our side.

I personally believe that we have the best players in the Dutch league but I just don't think that the current coaching staff can bring the team to the level that we expect. Also in regards to transfers I can not be too pleased about what they have done.

[aveslacker]

But my comments are not based on only this game against PSV. Sure it is great to be positive and I am each time before every new game. However there have just been too many games this season when I was just appalled by the poor level of performance by our side.

I personally believe that we have the best players in the Dutch league but I just don't think that the current coaching staff can bring the team to the level that we expect. Also in regards to transfers I can not be too pleased about what they have done.

I've never said that you can't discuss your opinions here. It seems pretty clear that the majority of posters on these boards agree with you. I have a different analysis of the situation and I think it's worth pointing out.

I'm not saying that Van Basten is the next Michels or anything. I think he has a lot to learn as a coach. It really didn't help him that he went straight from Jong Ajax to Oranje. However, I think he's gotten better and I fully expect him to do so. If you look back at some of my posts you will see that I've been skeptical of Marco over the course of this season. Nonetheless I feel he's got the team in a better position than any coach we've had since Koeman.

I also disagree that we've been as woeful in the transfer market as we have in the past. Look at the players we've bought recently: Aissati, Oleguer, Wielaert, Enoh, Suarez and Cvitanich have all been good buys. The bad purchases have been Sulejmani (for whom I still hold out hope), Silva, Sno and Kennedy. Leonardo has been inconsistent but has provided some value. All in all, I would guess that our success rate (at least recently, since ten Cate left) has been about par for the course.

At the end of the day this team, which is very young, and this coach, who is still fairly new to club coaching, have a lot to learn. I feel that we've gotten a lot of things right under Van Basten, but there is much room to grow. I just don't feel like one bad result, which is really counter to our recent run of very enjoyable form, is worth bringing out the long knives.

[jamie]

As you said, van Basten has a lot to learn. He is still a starting coach and will make beginner mistakes etc. I don't want him doing that with the first squad of Ajax. No coach can be a guarantee for success however getting an experienced coach who will not make many of the mistakes that van Basten is making should increase our changes of winning the title.

I have been against the appointment of van Basten since day 1 as I was with Blind, Wouters and Koeman. They were all great players but all were still in their baby shoes when it comes to being a trainer. I don't want them to learn on the job while coaching Ajax 1. Let them do that somewhere else and return when they have plenty of coaching experience.

[aveslacker]

As you said, van Basten has a lot to learn. He is still a starting coach and will make beginner mistakes etc. I don't want him doing that with the first squad of Ajax. No coach can be a guarantee for success however getting an experienced coach who will not make many of the mistakes that van Basten is making should increase our changes of winning the title.

I have been against the appointment of van Basten since day 1 as I was with Blind, Wouters and Koeman. They were all great players but all were still in their baby shoes when it comes to being a trainer. I don't want them to learn on the job while coaching Ajax 1. Let them do that somewhere else and return when they have plenty of coaching experience.

I understand that, and I've been skeptical of Marco in the past. However, I really wonder what our other options are. Hiddink isn't coming to Amsterdam. Neither is Mourinho. The reality is that we have to take a risk on a coach because, other than Van Gaal (who I suspect may well end up back in Amsterdam one day) not a lot of top coaches are interested in a team in the Eredivisie.

I don't think learning on the job is ideal, but this may well have been the best option available to us. And I still believe that Marco will be a good manager.

[Orange14]

Look, we all need to chill a bit and remember we have a first year club coach with a very young team. Lots of starters under the age of 25 with youngsters on the bench as well. We all want to see the team win, but in the past there hasn't been much of a plan. I think Marco has one (and I now some of you don't like it). He wants to get the young players into the game and build a squad. Our defense has been running hot and cold but we have two internationals starting at fullback (Van Der Wiel and Vermaelen) both who show great promise. We have a 19 year old who is looking like he will be a solid central defender (Alderweirld) and a couple of veterans who have also been both good and bad. the midfeild we started last Sunday were all under the age of 22 years old, similarly our front line as well.

We do need another defender as neither Oleguer or Wielaert are long term solutions. We need to see Sulejmani either step up to the plate or cut our losses. I think the battle for second place will come down to the final match day and I'm hopeful we can take it. this team has a good future but it will take another year for everything to come together. If we qualify for CL football I think Suarez will stick around for another season.

[SPL]

I would tend to agree with Orange's last posting.It is clear to me that the coach is building a young squad but the biggest moan on Sunday was the defence were woeful . I still think at 2-0 they could have come back but Vertonghen's howler killed the game.

One main problem since before Christmas was KJH was injured after about 11 league games and the only other central striker , Cvitanich has been injured alot so we have had to play Suarez in the centre which is not where he is at his best. We have scored goals though but our defence is still the weakness
and although Oleguer and Wielaert are Ok they are nothing special. A quality central defender is still required.

I think we should take into account the age of the team. Apart from the 2 defenders mentioned above and Gabri, who has been injured alot, nearly all all our players are under 25.

There have been too many bad buys as mentioned and there will be a clear out this summer but it will be interesting to see who he buys. It is still vital we finish 2nd and get to the CL qualifiers.

We have a lot of talent coming through aged from 16 to 18 . I would like to see Ajax loaning more young players out eg Siem de Jong was stopped from going on loan in Jan. and although he did get injured he has hardly played . Half a season with de Graafschap would have been more beneficial than a handful of reserve games and a couple of sub appearances.

Ajax made a hugh mistake back in 2005 when they let Van Gaal go and 2 months later Koeman went by which time Van Gaal had signed for AZ . As he is not availabale for our job I think we should stick with Marco and hope this young squad improves next season.

[aveslacker]

Ajax made a hugh mistake back in 2005 when they let Van Gaal go and 2 months later Koeman went by which time Van Gaal had signed for AZ . As he is not availabale for our job I think we should stick with Marco and hope this young squad improves next season.

This.

[martinkohout]

Granted, I'm a relative newbie on here, but I never fail to be impressed by the passion and knowledge of the other posters - on both sides of the issue. My gut feeling is that Orange14 and SPL are dead-on; though it is incredibly frustrating to go from 7-0 to 2-6 in one week, this is still a young squad and a new coach. I also think we have to remember that, though we may not like it, many (including the players) now see the Eredivisie in general and Ajax in particular as a stepping stone, a place where talent can ripen until it's ready for England/Spain/Italy/France, and as long as that's the case the club is always going to struggle to keep the players who rise to prominence (most recently Huntelaar; Suarez next, though I hope Orange14 is right about CL and the chance that he may stay). The days of Ajax dominating Europe are unlikely to return as long as the game's current financial structure remains unchanged. On the other hand, there's no reason the club shouldn't contend for the domestic title every year, and I would expect them to do so next year. If the results aren't there in another year, maybe it's time to rethink, but for now I say give 'em a chance.

Apologies for the length of this. We seem to have gotten fairly far afield from the PSV match, don't we?

[jamie]

As you said, van Basten has a lot to learn. He is still a starting coach and will make beginner mistakes etc. I don't want him doing that with the first squad of Ajax. No coach can be a guarantee for success however getting an experienced coach who will not make many of the mistakes that van Basten is making should increase our changes of winning the title.

I have been against the appointment of van Basten since day 1 as I was with Blind, Wouters and Koeman. They were all great players but all were still in their baby shoes when it comes to being a trainer. I don't want them to learn on the job while coaching Ajax 1. Let them do that somewhere else and return when they have plenty of coaching experience.

I understand that, and I've been skeptical of Marco in the past. However, I really wonder what our other options are. Hiddink isn't coming to Amsterdam. Neither is Mourinho. The reality is that we have to take a risk on a coach because, other than Van Gaal (who I suspect may well end up back in Amsterdam one day) not a lot of top coaches are interested in a team in the Eredivisie.

I don't think learning on the job is ideal, but this may well have been the best option available to us. And I still believe that Marco will be a good manager.

I am still a big fan of Co although I do know that he has some enemies on this site. I think that he could do very well with our team. I don't know what coaches are available but I would imagine that an alternative to Co would have to come from abroad.

In regards to some of the other posts, I am fully aware that we have a young squad but that is nothing new. We also had a very young squad in 95. In the beginning of the 1980's we had a very successful team that was most likely even younger then the current squad. My point is that Ajax always has young squads and that we win by playing well organized and offensive football. I just don't feel that the current team is managed and organized well by van Basten.

[Over Pasanens Head]

What we are missing is a real leader on the pitch for when things aren't going to plan. At the moment we just don't seem to have this person at all and haven't done now for some time. Lets hope that we will bring somebody in that can do this job as I cannot see any of the current squad maturing into this type of player.

[jamie]

Thats why van Basten purchased Robbie during the winter break. He is supposed to be our mature leader, coach and motivator on the pitch.

[Over Pasanens Head]

Thats why van Basten purchased Robbie during the winter break. He is supposed to be our mature leader, coach and motivator on the pitch.

It doesn't appear to have worked.

[jamie]

Exactly. All this drama to get a mediocre player. He was never able to become a regular for all those years he was at PSV. There must have been a reason for that. We have bought players like this in the past as well and it often did not work out. (Van Halts)

I think that van Basten did not do a very good job with the players he recruited so far and I just don't want to see him spending another 30 million Euros this summer. I suspect that they actually got lucky with Enoh.