18 Mar 2009: Ajax - Olympique Marseille

[saddlerian]

[quote="Kowalczyk"..... what was arguably the best performance of the season./quote]



I totally agree with you here Ko...this game had most of the punters in my pub totally spellbound.....(it's magic whata laptop and and video projector can do!!!)

The only question I can pose is....why can't they play with this much pace and fluency all of the time! It was a pure joy to watch.....and it's paid for next season's card!!!

[saddlerian]

Would Vermeer come in for so much criticism if he were white?

What the Hell has colour got to do with it????????

[SPL]

With both goals you have to ask what the defenders were doing. We played very well and I think we must stick with Marco and let him build a team to win the title next season.

I still think the lack of a real goal poacher is costing us big time. Suarez ran and worked his socks off and does miss chances but does get the chances. His goalscoring has not been the same since the winter break when we have played with him as our sole striker in effect.

I think our midfield is looking good and our best defensive prospects all come from Belgium. It is up front we need to buy.Suarez is our attack at present. Yes Sulejmani is finding his feet now and scored a lovely goal but
our attack last night was lightweight as usual. With Suarez likely to leave we need to buy forwards including 2 real fast wingers.(I still think we have not given Martina a fair chance)

[Monkey Tonk]

We wouldn't even have been in this round if it wasn't for Kenneth Vermeer... Very unfair, this.

K.

Playing great one week, horrible the next, is not good enough. That may be ok for a striker, but a goalie has to be consistent. Nobody said a goalie's life was fair. ;)

[Orange14]

For the record here are the ages of our startering 11 from yesterday's match:

Vermeer - 23
Silva - 28
Alderweireld - 20
Oleguer - 29
Schilder - 22
Enoh - 22 (23 next week)
Aissati - 20
Anita - 19
Emanuelson - 22
Suarez - 22
Sulejmani - 20

We are far younger than the last two teams we faced (and probably all the teams we played in the pool round). With youth comes inexperience, particularly on the defensive side of things. Maybe we don't keep Suarez after this season (we do lose Schilder, who didn't have that bad a match as well as Silva). When you add the suspended and injured players into the mix, the team is even younger!!! There is quality to all these players and it bodes well for the future.

On the goalkeeping situation, we do have a problem. We have two pretty good keepers each with pluses and minuses. It would be great if Vermeer had Stek's height and ability to defend against crosses. It would be great if Stek had Vermeers reflex ability. for those who criticized Vermeer yesterday, remember he was hardly tested throughout the match. Much of the game was played in the Marseille half and this has an effect on the keeper's concentration. With experience this may be a non-issue. I think if we look back at some of the matches he has played during Stek's injury absence there were some magnificient performances and a number of clean sheets. I think either of these keepers can do the job and it will be a tough job for MVB to make the call on which one to make #1.

[bluedaddy19]

Would Vermeer come in for so much criticism if he were white?

wow, i don't even know where that came from

go ahead and ask ko how i felt about bogdan lobont's soft goals... i like vermeer's promise, but i savaged lobont as policy

i bet if you asked kenneth, he would freely tell you he let 3 soft goals and that the team deserved better

[Amol]

Would Vermeer come in for so much criticism if he were white?

Of course he would. Please lets not turn this into a race discussion now. It has been very objective so far.

I think this has less to do with Vermeer having lesser abilites than Steks. Its just that he has different abilities. If you shoot 10 shots at Vermeer and Steks, I think Vermeer would save more. But that is because he is a reactionary keeper.

I think more should've been done on the 2nd goal. The first was due to a perfect through ball. I think he just waited too long for the situation to pan out. Mind you, the defense didn't really help him a lot.

If we want to talk about let-downs, why not mention the ability of Suarez to miss clear-cut chances? Time and time again this happens.

I tired of talking about that. Trouble is - he is not a central striker, so when he's played as one, he has his ups and downs.

[ZoefdeHaas]

It's no use to criticize a team that's already under great scrutiny. This was generally a good performance, and hopefully it will continue so we can get the CL spot for next season.

[Kowalczyk]

Would Vermeer come in for so much criticism if he were white?

Of course he would. Please lets not turn this into a race discussion now.

Indeed. Let's not do that. That suggestion is an insult to everybody who contributed to this discussion so far.

Let's forget it and carry on.

K.

[bluedaddy19]

this game had most of the punters in my pub totally spellbound.....(it's magic whata laptop and and video projector can do!!!)

LOL

you are an ambassador of AJAX!!!

[Amol]

It's no use to criticize a team that's already under great scrutiny. This was generally a good performance, and hopefully it will continue so we can get the CL spot for next season.

Agreed. This has been the best performance in ages. The thing I liked the most about last night and which I think was the key to the performance was the fact that the defense played really high.

They squeezed the field and were able to help the midfield and vice versa. Both Alderweireld and Oleguer were able to make a few forays unchallenged which was great.

Statistically this wasn't that bad a result - Dutch #3 losing to the French #2. Our last two UEFA cup wins came down to lucky goals. I guess the 'luck' ran out as soon as we played a really good match.

We need to keep Van Basten and wait for this team to project into the next few years. I think there is something great happening here.

[Venezuelan Ajacied]

When you have a defensive unit that is this young you can expect this kind of trouble, plain and simple, but blaming a golie for everything is just childish, Vermeer fucked up in the first goal but he was put to dry on the second one..both goals were scored when the defense got complacent, i'm almost sure that with the presence of a strong figure in defense (Vermaelen) we would have gone through.

[Venezuelan Ajacied]

It's no use to criticize a team that's already under great scrutiny. This was generally a good performance, and hopefully it will continue so we can get the CL spot for next season.

Agreed. This has been the best performance in ages. The thing I liked the most about last night and which I think was the key to the performance was the fact that the defense played really high.

They squeezed the field and were able to help the midfield and vice versa. Both Alderweireld and Oleguer were able to make a few forays unchallenged which was great.

Statistically this wasn't that bad a result - Dutch #3 losing to the French #2. Our last two UEFA cup wins came down to lucky goals. I guess the 'luck' ran out as soon as we played a really good match.

We need to keep Van Basten and wait for this team to project into the next few years. I think there is something great happening here.

Problem is...can we keep this team together long enough ?...its the eternal ajax dilemma.

[Amol]

Problem is...can we keep this team together long enough ?...its the eternal ajax dilemma.

One good thing to come out of the current economic crisis is that there will be less teams with a lot of money in the next few years. The Italians won't be able to afford a lot of purchases. The Russians are losing a lot of money on oil and metals and thus can't afford spending millions on their English teams.

...and then I woke up...

[bluedaddy19]

Problem is...can we keep this team together long enough ?...its the eternal ajax dilemma.

so true

as i said, i still like kenneth and i dont fault him 100% on each goal (well, i kinda do on the first leg howler, but he was screened quite badly)

i was just so mad that the team played so well and so hard and got let down by soft goals... this is the cross keepers bear

[Philippe]

Would Vermeer come in for so much criticism if he were white?

Of course he would. Please lets not turn this into a race discussion now.

Indeed. Let's not do that. That suggestion is an insult to everybody who contributed to this discussion so far.

Let's forget it and carry on.

K.

Yes.

Yesterday, the team proved to be stronger than expected IMO. Let's build on this. Hope they are still motivated for the rest of the season. We still need to fight for the CL spot.

[The Purple Cow]

"i bet if you asked kenneth, he would freely tell you he let 3 soft goals and that the team deserved better.."

Sorry but that is total bollocks.

Ajax lost because there defense is crap, the goalkeeper is only a part of that collective. I don't think Vermeer is a particularly good goalkeeper (those he's massively better than Stekkers) but to blame him for three L'Om goals is insanity

[ajaxusa]

I will just point out that one of the great pleasures of being a football fan (as opposed to a manager or even a journalist) is the ability to make completely subjective and arbitrary, indeed over the top and indefensible, statements about players. It is the fan's prerogative, I suppose.

So, this thread has just declared that Vermeer is useless and Stekelenburg is crap. I guess the good news is that there are a dozen or more teams in Holland who would kill to have such crap 'keepers at their disposal.

I resent having this conversation without a beer in my hand.

[SPL]

I looked at the goals again and yes you can blame Vermeer but surely the defence was to blame for the farce of the second and as for the first
the french guy was allowed to run through both Oleguer and Alderweireld.

IMo neither goals were goalie howlers but defensive mistakes.

Looking back on the positives the squad is young and several of those
25+ will go this summer ie Steks possibly, Gentenaar Silva Kennedy Leo
probably leaving Gabri Wielaert and Oleguer at most .Marco must stay and continue to build a young team to win trophies.We do seem to have a lot of young defenders and midfielders in the system but not many forwards.

[Manneken Pis]

Just one other comment on the first goal wednesday night...

Vemmer clearly slips as he accelerates towards the attacker breaking through. This causes him to lose a vital half second and gives the attacker the moment he needs to shoot. Whatever is good or bad about Vemeer, this kind of one-on-one is what he generally excels in. The pitch caused various players to slip over during the game (both sides) but this was the only game influencing moment. It's slightly embarrasing that a club of Ajax's stature has such a poor pitch (did anyone else notice the army of guys at half time with pitch-forks trying to repair the pitch?).

The reality is that Vemeer is a good "shot stopper" but doesn't "dominate" the penalty area, nor "marshal" his defence well, nor show decisiveness for crosses and corners. Globally Stecks is better overall when measured on all these criteria, but going through a bad patch (as happens to every player at some moment or other). I think Vemeer remains a credible number two, and stecks has potential as a long term number one. As others have mentioned above the real problem is the defence...

[Philippe]

I fully agree with MP about the keepers. The trouble is that it's an all-or-nothing choice.

But I don't think our defense was so bad during that specific game.

Let's leave the conclusion to The Boss : ",,This match just was very positive”, Van Basten said. ,,It is also important that the guys gained much experience. The next weeks, in the last stages of the league, we have to use that.”

PS : does anyone know the ball possession stats ?

[Manneken Pis]

But I don't think our defense was so bad during that specific game.

Agreed, overall they did a relatively good job;

- they got caught out once during regular time and got mailed with a goal,
- in extra time they lacked concentration for the second which is a shame but kinda understandable.

My comment on defence was more general over the season, i.e. there's been a lot of pressure on whatever goalie because we haven't been tight at the back.

[Orange14]

PS : does anyone know the ball possession stats ?

Soccernet reported 52-48 in our favor. this was much closer than I expected it would be. Even so, I don't think a lot of the Marseille possession was in the danger area near the goal.

[Philippe]

Thanks.
52-48 can't be true though, I expected at least a 60-40 gap.

[Cedric]

64/36 according to L'Equipe.