Ajax Coaches

[aveslacker]

I think Henk ten Cate has improved Ajax in terms of playing attractive football. As for results...it remains to be seen.

How can it remain to be seen? How many points did they have at this point last year? We have ten more points than at this point last year. The results are superior to last year.

[Ayman]

aveslacker said:

How can it remain to be seen? How many points did they have at this point last year? We have ten more points than at this point last year. The results are superior to last year.

Yes you are right, but not enough to stop the farmers from dominating the league. One may argue that the team is still lacking in conviction.

[aveslacker]

aveslacker said:

How can it remain to be seen? How many points did they have at this point last year? We have ten more points than at this point last year. The results are superior to last year.

Yes you are right, but not enough to stop the farmers from dominating the league. One may argue that the team is still lacking in conviction.

I agree with the idea that the team isn't quite at the level of psv, but they aren't too far behind it. Certainly the difference in quality between the two teams this year is much less than it was last year.

Again, there has been tremendous improvement from this year to last. But the team still has a way to go.

[Kowalczyk]

People claiming that Ajax are not better now than they were a year ago only prove one thing to me, namelijk: how easily people forget.

I mean it was f*cking bad, man... Slow, no movement, no structure, no idea whatsoever... All the youngsters were afraid to play at home and to get the ball. They were playing hide 'n seek and were absolutely terrified to makes mistakes.

This season's Ajax is way better and by saying that I am not (repeat: not) making a Blind vs Ten Cate statement here. It's not necessarily that. Not just that. This year we have KJH from the start. We have Stam (plus a fantastic Grygera), we have Gabri, we have Babel and Heitinga with renewed confidence - and we have Ten Cate and his staff (Groenendijk and Spijkerman, let's not forget about them: they are fantastic coaches, with a more positive and inspiring effect on the squad than Krol and Van der Lem last year).

In other words: on a number of positions we simply have better people than we had last season. The position of head-coach is just one of those positions.

There's still a lot of work to do and I was disappointed with the games at Roda, Sparta Rotterdam and Sparta Prague. I thought Ajax were beyond that stage. I was convinced they simply couldn't play that poorly anymore, but it happened nonetheless, so we're definitely not there yet. But the over-all quality of the football? The number of chances they create? The reliability of the defense? If you look at those things we really have made a huge leap forward.

I believe in what is happening at the club at the moment - and I'm not only talking about the first team here. For the first time in years I genuinely feel that we have all the right people: board, directors, coaches. No more mediocre, conservative men from the old boys' network (the Van Os/Van Eijden), but modern managers with a vision. We have business people in the right positions and football people in the right positions. The key man is Martin van Geel. He is the best thing that happened to this club in many, many years.

The only department that still needs to be re-structured is the scouting department, but changes are inevitable over there because the head of the scouting department (Ton Pronk) is retiring.

Also, the club are using Johan Cruyff's know-how again. Martin van Geel speaks to him very regularly, although he doesn't like to admit it in the press.

We're getting there, people. Believe me. We've had a bad slump in November, but we're still in Europe. If we can pick up the form of - say - the Utrecht, Feyenoord and Groningen games again, and take it from there, a very nice Spring may lie ahead (especially in the UEFA Cup). It's only just starting.

K.

[HBK]

F*cking great to read your optimistic post, ko. :headbang:

We are close and remote from there. Whan the referee finish whistle 3 weeks ago against P$V, the response of the players was something like that: p$v celebrate title, ajax players didn't know where to bury themselves.

Two weeks later (Twente, Sparta X2) and This truly visible like that. P$v isnt much better than AJAX, The big difference is in the mentality.

It's seems like every lost can insert us to a crisis. The business there (in p$v) seems more quiet and relaxed, even if they lose.

In this issue, we still very far from them.

[aveslacker]

It's seems like every lost can insert us to a crisis. The business there (in p$v) seems more quiet and relaxed, even if they lose.

In this issue, we still very far from them.

:yes:
This might be the biggest difference between Ajax and psv. The talent difference isn't huge.

[Philippe]

I believe in what is happening at the club at the moment - and I'm not only talking about the first team here. For the first time in years I genuinely feel that we have all the right people: board, directors, coaches. No more mediocre, conservative men from the old boys' network (the Van Os/Van Eijden), but modern managers with a vision.

:xyxthumbs: :drecul2: :D

Thanks for a good laugh, Ko. We needed that in times when we are about to forget about the title.

The best we can hope for is winning the Cup, and the play-offs. Doesn't it matter-of-factly ring a bell ?

[DanK]

I believe in what is happening at the club at the moment - and I'm not only talking about the first team here. For the first time in years I genuinely feel that we have all the right people: board, directors, coaches. No more mediocre, conservative men from the old boys' network (the Van Os/Van Eijden), but modern managers with a vision.

:xyxthumbs: :drecul2: :D

Thanks for a good laugh, Ko. We needed that in times when we are about to forget about the title.

The best we can hope for is winning the Cup, and the play-offs. Doesn't it matter-of-factly ring a bell ?

Phillippe, I think the difference here is that we actually have something to build on. Last season, apart from an odd game or two, we played boring, sometimes, well - pathetic football. At least we are showing something to say that this season we are again heading in the right direction.

I'm not saying we will get there, but I feel much more optimistic this season than I did last...just my opinion of course.

[Kowalczyk]

Thanks for a good laugh, Ko. We needed that in times when we are about to forget about the title.

The best we can hope for is winning the Cup, and the play-offs. Doesn't it matter-of-factly ring a bell ?

Phillippe, I think the difference here is that we actually have something to build on.

Exactly. Cheers for this, mate.

I explained very clearly that I am not talking about the silverware we win this season, but about something 'deeper' than that: the visions of the people in charge, the direction of the club, etc.

But Philippe simply doesn't want to know (what else is new?).

K.

[Ayman]

Kowalczyk said:

I explained very clearly that I am not talking about the silverware we win this season, but about something 'deeper' than that: the visions of the people in charge, the direction of the club, etc.

I agree, my only worry is the key players we will lose at the end of the season, furthermore how many? :nooo:
This may hinder our chances of improving as a team

[SPL]

I would back up Ayman in as much we do not know how many key players will leave. Sneijder will almost certainly leave but we need KJH and Urby for at least another season.And we need to keep Babel for another couple of seasons.

[Philippe]

am not talking about the silverware we win this season, but about something 'deeper' than that: the visions of the people in charge, the direction of the club, etc.

But Philippe simply doesn't want to know (what else is new?).

K.

I really wouldn't like to disturb your optimistic mood, but I would just remind you that what Ajax are supposed to aim at is victory. All this "vision" stuff is very nice, but it can not replace positive results.

Since the beginning of the season, we have not won a single game against tough opponents : CL preliminary round, PSV, Espanol Barcelona, or AZ.

Ajax are worth better than this.
Let's not become losers, satisfied with good intents only.

HTC reminds me of the Co years : very attractive football, but terrible results in crucial games.

My hope is that he will prove me wrong. We need to beat Werder Bremen and become a winning side again.

[Over Pasanens Head]

HTC reminds me of the Co years : very attractive football, but terrible results in crucial games.

I am a big Co fan, but Co and attractive didn't always go together - have you forgotten his master plan that was called the Berlin Wall?

No moving onto the other Ko in our life, I do believe that he is correct in his assessment of this year. We have made progress, not as much as I thought we would I grant you, but progress we have indeed made.

You cannot turn it all around in a space of a few months unless you have an inspirational crop of youngsters suddenly come through or a wealthy Russian takes over. Neither of these are on my radar, so we have to improve the group of players we have with us at the moment and to this end I believe that we are making good progress.

Lastly a message to SPL - please stop fretting over the players we might or might not sell - what will happen will happen without you worrying yourself into an early grave.

[carcajou]

Another thing... With quite a few new players in the team, it could never have gone smoothly immediately as defining a new style for the team needs time. I share that feeling that things could get MUCH better in the long term. But of course now, some people just can't wait long enough till the sun pops out from behind the clouds....(and then again, what else is new?)

[Kowalczyk]

I really wouldn't like to disturb your optimistic mood, but I would just remind you that what Ajax are supposed to aim at is victory. All this "vision" stuff is very nice, but it can not replace positive results.

Right - and here we hit the essence of the whole discussion.

You seem to believe that a vision based on attractive, offensive football is a form of idealism, whereas 'going for results' is realism. I fundamentally disagree with that. If you don't genuinely believe that offensive football is the best way to actually beat opponents, then there is no point in it whatsoever.

This belief (sometimes stubborn, but always genuine) in offensive football is one of the key reasons why I love this club so much.

Playing attractive, offensive football is not something that gives you less of a chance to become succesful; the belief of this club is that playing offensive, attractive football is, essentially, the only way to become succesful.

Ajax are a big club, but we're most definitely a smaller club (financially) than a handful of other football clubs from Europe's major football nations. If we try to do things the same way as them, we officially accept our place in the (financial) food chain of football - and we will never win an international trophy again. If we try to win the war with the same weapons they are using, we won't stand a chance, for the simple reason that they have more money to spend.

Our only chance is to try and be a little bit different - and to do it our way. If we try to 'run just as fast' as AC Milan and Real Madrid, we will lose. Our only option is to try and and be smarter and find a shortcut. That shortcut is: Ajax football. Our football. The one thing that makes us different (and let's not forget that this 'idealistic', 'naive' approach has also made us one of the most succesful football clubs in the world, by the way).

You, Philippe, seem to be a 'Koeman man': he fielded an offensive 4-3-3 against weaker opponents in the Eredivisie, because Ajax could 'afford it' against them. Against top drawer opposition he used to revert to a defensive formation, thereby more or less admitting that the 'Ajax approach' (offensive football with 'wings') was a bit of a pain in the ass to him: something he couldn't ignore for reasons of tradition - but still: a pain in the ass. He didn't genuinely believe in offensive football.

I am a 'Cruyff man' (and therefore an 'Ajax man'): playing attractive, offensive football is not a pain in the ass, something that makes us vulnerable or something that stands in the way of glory. I believe in the exact opposite statement: playing offensively is, in fact, our only chance. Let's believe in it. For now and forever.

K.

[Dubbel]

Exactly, Ko, well put. :yes:

If you have to play against a better team, don't put in an extra defender but put an extra forward in the line-up. The opposing side is used to playing against a fortified defense but may not be prepared to play against an extra attacker. Having said this; I do support an occasional 442(or whatever) just to surprise an opponent or because it exposes an opponent's weaknesses.

[ajax-erie]

AJACIENS-

WHAT ABOUT "TOTAL FOOTBALL"- AND THE 1-3-3-3 FORMATION
USED FOR HOME MATCHES AND CL BACK IN BETTER TIMES
TALK IS CHEAP-BUT WE ARE AJAX AND THE MIXTURE OF YOUTH/VETERANS
WOULD ENABLE AJAX TO IMPROVE AND GET RESULTS(VICTORY)

[Dubbel]

How's about a 3-1-3-3 formation? CLASSIC. :headbang:

By the way; welcome here!

[DanK]

Ko...nicely put mate.

The few season ESPN showed full Ajax games were unfortunately the Koeman/Blind years. I say "unfortunately" because for most of these years I did not see the Ajax that I hold so dear. I saw a team that would (mostly) win, but there were so many times that I walked away from the TV for a drink, toilet break etc because, well to be honest, most of the games were so dull and boring i couldn't stand it. Where were the Ajax? The REAL Ajax?

From what I can get a hold of this year (thanks Dad for the satelite link he has!!!) - this is more like the Ajax I need to see. Hey, you score a goal...fine we will try to score 2. THAT is the Ajax I would rather see.

While this may mean a loss here or there. I am willing to accept this if it makes me proud to say to people "watch this team PLAY football. This is how it is meant to be played!".

[Philippe]

You, Philippe, seem to be a 'Koeman man': he fielded an offensive 4-3-3 against weaker opponents in the Eredivisie, because Ajax could 'afford it' against them. Against top drawer opposition he used to revert to a defensive formation, thereby more or less admitting that the 'Ajax approach' (offensive football with 'wings') was a bit of a pain in the ass to him: something he couldn't ignore for reasons of tradition - but still: a pain in the ass. He didn't genuinely believe in offensive football.

I am a 'Cruyff man' (and therefore an 'Ajax man'): playing attractive, offensive football is not a pain in the ass, something that makes us vulnerable or something that stands in the way of glory. I believe in the exact opposite statement: playing offensively is, in fact, our only chance. Let's believe in it. For now and forever.

K.

Strange and tricky speech indeed.

Where did you get all this ? In fact I always supported the 4-3-3 system. I never said any of what I am supposed to think according to you.

What makes me a Koeman man : asking for results and not being satisfied with mediocre results ?
What makes you a Cruyff man : being happy with the coach in charge ? Just remember that Ajax used to win with Cruyff, otherwise Ajax would never have been Ajax …

No one can be satisfied to be number 3 in Holland and virtually nowhere in Europe, even with presumably attractive football. Not even Wouters men.

The question is not to decide between attractive play OR winning, but to play an attractive football and win. I believe that's what Ajax is about.

[carcajou]

No one can be satisfied to be number 3 in Holland and virtually nowhere in Europe, even with presumably attractive football. Not even Wouters men.

The question is not to decide between attractive play OR winning, but to play an attractive football and win. I believe that's what Ajax is about.

So let me sum it up... You want the boys to win all the games playing an attractive football? That makes you quite unique on these boards I guess... *cough*NOT*cough*

[Philippe]

it feels like the silent majority has spoken :D

[aveslacker]

The question is not to decide between attractive play OR winning, but to play an attractive football and win. I believe that's what Ajax is about.

Then why did/do you support Danny Blind when, as coach, Ajax did neither?

[Kowalczyk]

Philippe: I kind of agree with you, don't get me wrong. I also believe that Ajax should always go for great football and great results. That's our goal, of course. That must always be our ambition.

However, if you look at where we come from (the football and the results in the 2004-'05 and 2005-'06 seasons) you will have to understand that we can't jump from 'absolutely shit' to 'absolutely fantastic' in one jump. Sometimes, as a supporter, you need to be pleased with improvement. That's the case right now. We're not fantastic; we're improving.

Ajax have 8 points more than we had last year. We score more goals. Concede less goals. We play better football (much better football, in fact). We're 3rd on the table (last year we were 9th or something). We're improving.

One thing I don't understand about you, though...

If you do acknowledge that playing great football is one of Ajax's goals, then how can you say (as you sometimes do) that there is no difference between finishing 5th and finishing 2nd, because of the play-offs? I just don't understand that cynical approach... How can you look at it that way? We're Ajax, we're supposed to win every game and we're supposed to look good. Of course there is a difference between being 5th, 24 points behind PSV - and being 2nd or 3rd, let's say six points behind PSV... How can that difference ever be irrelevant to you?

K.

[Philippe]

I fully agree with you about the style of play, the tactical 4-3-3
In my opinion, our targets are as follows, by order of importance :
1-The title
2-Qualifying for the next CL
3-Doing as well as possible in Europe (at least 1/4 finals)
4-Winning the cup
So, of course I'd rather see us 2nd or 3rd, let's say six points behind PSV rather than 5th 24 points behind, but it will not get us any closer to the goals we have to reach. The sad reality is, with this stupid play-offs system, that if we are not champions, we will need to win the play-offs. And being 2nd or 5th will make no difference in the end.
but if we play well, attractive football, with wingers, we remain ourselves.
The worst would be for Ajax to convert to some result-only-matters culture, and then again I fully agree with you, Ko.