The Future of the 'Away Fan'

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Kowalczyk
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The Future of the 'Away Fan'

Bericht door Kowalczyk » ma apr 18, 2005 8:22 am

This will be the number one issue this week, I'm afraid...

A majority of the Dutch parliament (the Tweede Kamer, as we call it) feels that the time has come to ban 'away fans' from so-called high risk Eredivisie fixtures forever. The boards of Ajax and Feyenoord also support that idea.

For those interested: I was there yesterday and below is the 'eye witness' account I posted to the Feyenoord v Ajax thread yesterday...
The Ajax supporters (1,600) were divided over two trains from the ArenA to De Kuip. 800 on each train. I was on train #1. Just before arrival, less than one mile before De Kuip, some nutters managed to pull the emergency brake, in spite of riot police presence on board. The train was suddenly standing still, furniture was thrown out of the windows and approximately 30 hooligans managed to open the doors and get off the train. There weren't many Feyenoord supporters there. Riot police were on the spot in no-time and secured the area.

Okay. Here's what the police should have done: arrest the group of approximately 30 hooligans, who had gotten off the train and were throwing bricks. If they had done that, the train (with some 770 innocent supporters, who were still on the train and behaved normally) could have pulled into the Rotterdam Stadion train station, which was only a few hundred metres away.

Here's what they actually did: they did not arrest anyone, but attempted to get everyone back on the train. A sort of 'cat and mouse' game was the result: fans running away from the train and back again, the police chasing them. The train was there, standing in the middle of Rotterdam, near De Kuip, for well over an hour.

The result: Feyenoord fans saw the train standing there and had plenty of time to call their mates with their cellphones. Increasing number of Feyenoord hooligans arrived on the scene. They never came close to our train, though. There were no fights and they were too far away to throw bricks. They only managed to fire a few rockets.

Train #2, meanwhile, was approaching Rotterdam, but received orders to stop outside of the city, until the 800 on train #1 were safely inside the away section. It took so long that the mayor of Rotterdam made his second big mistake: he ordered that train #2 returned to Amsterdam. Result: it went off big time aboard train #2. They destroyed the doors, broke out. Apparently, they've been fighting the police and caused trouble for the rest of the afternoon. I called a guy who was on train #2. At 4:00 PM they were still outside on the tracks. There's been no train traffic from Amsterdam to Rotterdam all afternoon.

Back to train #1...

After an hour everyone was finally back on board and we pulled into Rotterdam Stadion, the train station in front of De Kuip. There was a f#cking army of Feyenoord hooligans there. Hundreds of 'em. We were pelted with bricks and rockets and on both sides of the fence there were several attempts to break through.

We were now standing in the 'lock chamber' in between the railway station and the steel tunnel to the away section and - to cut a long story short - that's where we would for the rest of the afternoon. It was soon announced by the police that the mayor had decided we were not welcome inside and were going to be transported back to Amsterdam.

Our train, however, was no longer 'intact' at this point, so they started to arrange city buses for us. This took a long time. We were standing outside, right in front of the stadium, listening to the game on the radio. The buses finally arrived around the 75th minute. We heard Feyenoord score the 2-1 when it was our turn to hop on a bus - and a few minutes later we were on our way back to Amsterdam, on a bus full of Rotterdam coppers. We were listening to the radio and it was great to celebrate the equalizer and the game winner, I must say... Everyone very happy after all.

But the problem wasn't solved yet. The buses arrived so late that they couldn't put all 800 of us on transport before the final whistle. After the game an outraged horde of Feyenoord fans stormed out of the stadium and attacked the 'lock chamber', where some 200 Ajax fans were still held. A few guys on my bus were in touch with a few other who were still there and apparently Feyenoord almost managed to break through the fencing.

That's the story, pretty much... Can't say it was a dull day.

I wonder what's going to happen now: the cops took all of our season tickets (orders from Ajax). I've been told that they wanted the season tickets of everyone on train #1, so that they can use the photos on them to identify the hooligans on the video footage the police were taking. Which would mean I am safe. I never left the train and didn't do a thing. Wonder how (and when) I will get my season ticket back, tho.

Anyway: it sucks that we missed the game, but to be honest with you I am extremely happy with this win - and especially the way in which we booked it.
K.
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Over Pasanens Head
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Bericht door Over Pasanens Head » ma apr 18, 2005 8:37 am

It will be a shame if a few knuckleheads spoil it for the majority of supporters.
Away supporters are an integral part of any game and add to the atmosphere at the game. Take them away and it can be as dead as a dodo.
Having said that, if people cannot show that they can behave then what alternative have the authorities got, although I do then worry that there could be a danger that fans will try and get tickets on the black market and thus more trouble could occur.

As to matches at the tub, I really cannot understand why the walkway between the station and the ground isn't completely covered in and built to stop mindless idiots getting to the away fans. I realise that the gap between station and ground is far greater than at the ArenA or in Eindhoven but surely something could and should be done.

It seems from what Ko is saying that the decision is a done-deal - lets hope that the decision is reversible in a few years time.
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Bericht door Kowalczyk » ma apr 18, 2005 9:16 am

Over Pasanens Head schreef:As to matches at the tub, I really cannot understand why the walkway between the station and the ground isn't completely covered in and built to stop mindless idiots getting to the away fans. I realise that the gap between station and ground is far greater than at the ArenA or in Eindhoven but surely something could and should be done.
Until the mid-1990s there no such thing as a walkway or a steel tunnel. When the trains arrived we used to cross the square in front of the ground under police escort. Always a ball. Seems unbelievable now that it was like that until - I think - 1994 or 1995 even...

K.
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Per
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Bericht door Per » ma apr 18, 2005 12:14 pm

It's incredible when you compare.....here in Sweden we right now have a big campaign called "Love football", which is a protest against violence related to football.

The last two years a number of new "firms" have risen here and there has been alot of trouble and violence lately, not so much on the terraces, but on a few occassions even there. Most of the violence happans between the firms, the police and on occassion poor people coming in between - away from the pitch.

The thing is that when I compare it to Ko's story - we still have nothing. I go on a couple of away games a year and always home games and derbys. I have never been subjected to violence and the away games are just a big party. Sure a few police-men with dogs turn up and show themselves around us. But the generally so more or less nothing - perhaps even have a lauch and socialize with the supporters. Here in Sweden we are not yet subjected to this kind of incidents unless we want to.

I really ope it stays that way. Home premiere tonight for my team. Standing ticket in the freezing cold - effin love it =).
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Bericht door carcajou » ma apr 18, 2005 12:20 pm

Per schreef: I really ope it stays that way. Home premiere tonight for my team. Standing ticket in the freezing cold - effin love it =).
Man, it's almost May and you still have what YOU (a born Swede) consider "freezing cold" (meaning I would die of hypothermia in a second).... I'd hate to live there :sad:
meh :|

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Bericht door jakobg » ma apr 18, 2005 2:32 pm

Carcajou schreef:
Per schreef: I really ope it stays that way. Home premiere tonight for my team. Standing ticket in the freezing cold - effin love it =).
Man, it's almost May and you still have what YOU (a born Swede) consider "freezing cold" (meaning I would die of hypothermia in a second).... I'd hate to live there :sad:
Ah, don't exaggerate. The sun is shining and it's lovely outside (at least outside my window in northern Sweden). A little cold today tho, about 8 degrees right now, but as long as the sun is up it's fine.

Not saying that I wouldn't want to change weather with some of you guys, but it's not that bad.
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Per
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Bericht door Per » ma apr 18, 2005 2:40 pm

It's all relative, I don't mean freezing cold as in the winter. I just meant that I know I will be freezing tonight "post sun hours".

Back to the issue:

How is it in France with the violence. Do many supporters follow their team away as well?

/ P
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Bericht door Kowalczyk » ma apr 18, 2005 2:44 pm

If I would move away from Holland (which I would do if we didn't have Amsterdam) I would probably move to Sweden. Well, okay, first I would try to find a place I could afford in Central London or Manhattan. But after that I would go for Sweden. Stockholm has a similar feeling to it as Amsterdam. Beautiful place. And outside of Stockholm Sweden feels like Holland-when-we-still-had-our-shit-together. The social system, the attitude, the women... I really like it. My kind of place, completely.

Actually, when I was in Stockholm for the first time it was as hot as the devil's a##hole. Practically a heatwave.

K.
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Bericht door carcajou » ma apr 18, 2005 3:27 pm

Per schreef: How is it in France with the violence. Do many supporters follow their team away as well?
/ P
Well.... Not that much. You have the basic PSG - Marseille riots once in a while, but it's pretty cool. French football is just so NOT passionate....
meh :|

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Bericht door Blind3 » ma apr 18, 2005 6:57 pm

A crying shame that the knuckleheads responsible can't be singled out ,banned for life, and a screening process in place to prevent criminals from filtering back. Sounds like a typical over-reaction and exercise in political windbaggery.

As for the weather, the April 2 Metrostars opener was played in torrential rain and wind(and more wind if you include the ref). I saw an ark float by in the second half.Goalkicks were hilarious;floating 25 yards forward and 15 back.About 8 degrees on the night.Saturday's game, the 2nd on the season, was much nicer,though cool.And CBGB's, NYC, after is always RED HOT!

Finally, the worse fan violence here was probably a Peru-Honduras Gold Cup match,Feb. 2000. Honduras had a goal disallowed and rioted in the stands and onto the pitch.Police cars drove onto the pitch,The Orange Bowl in Miami.I suffered a concussion after being struck in the back of the head by a 20 oz. ,full, bottle of water thrown from about 6 meters away.The last thing I remember is sirens.American football fans are tame by comparison. Fist fights,especially between drinking fans , are usually the worst.
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Bericht door Per » ma apr 18, 2005 9:32 pm

Yeah, I guess USA isn't what comes into mind first when it comed to supporter related violence. Its more a family thing over there I reckon?

I like the mix. TOday I was standing behind a drunk who kept having to lean back on me to be able to stand. On the left I had a few guys with their girlfriends explaining the chants about the away team goalie, to the right a couple of angry men in their thirties screaming unmentionables (no not the Victoria Secret kind....) all throuch the game.

And then there was me :hypocrite:

I like it when you can get this mix. To some extent the filosofical discussion and analysis of the game, to some extent just screaming and going on ure gut feeling. Having a go at the away tema and chanting along in the hymns. We need the dynamic if someone is going to pay the ridiculous amounts of money we do to go and watch 22 complete and utter morons run after a ball.

Cheers!
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Bericht door bluedaddy19 » di apr 19, 2005 1:45 am

Blind3 schreef:A crying shame that the knuckleheads responsible can't be singled out ,banned for life, and a screening process in place to prevent criminals from filtering back. Sounds like a typical over-reaction and exercise in political windbaggery.

yeah, especially when a politician completely magnified a small situation into a potentially major disaster... and then they go into "it's more important how it appears than how it actually is" mode :nooo:
AJAX HUP ROOD WITTE SCHARE, DAPP RE STRIJDERS FIER EN KOEN
GEEN CLUB DIE ONS KAN EVENAREN, ROOD EN WIT WORDT KAMPIOEN

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Bericht door Kowalczyk » di apr 19, 2005 7:31 am

This is from Reuters.
Ban away fans from high risk matches, says Dutch MPs
ROTTERDAM, Netherlands, April 18 (Reuters) - Dutch MPs are urging the government to ban away fans from high-risk matches after trouble before and after Sunday's first division match between Feyenoord and their rivals Ajax Amsterdam.

"If fans behave like this it is not worth allowing them to attend the match," Gerdi Verbeet of the PvdA Labour party was quoted as saying in the Dutch media on Monday.

"It will cost the police too much time and society will pay the price. Police officers have to sacrifice their free hours and then are not available for their normal tasks."

The Rotterdam-Rijnmond police arrested 43 Feyenoord fans after the match in the De Kuip stadium, which Ajax won 3-2, following clashes with police, and eight supporters remain in custody. Seven policemen were injured during the trouble.

Ajax fans wrecked two trains taking them to the match with 800 supporters detained at Feyenoord station on arrival, while another 800 were left stranded near Rotterdam. All 1600 fans were sent back to Amsterdam on buses to face charges.

"Matches with a high risk level should be played without away fans while the (cost of the) damage should be recovered from the hooligans," Joop Atsma of the CDA Christian-Democrat party was quoted as saying by the local media.

Jan Rijpstra of the VVD free-market liberals added: "The vandals should be held personally responsible and you have to burden these kind of fans with the bill".

EXTRA ALERT

Feyenoord host PSV Eindhoven in a Dutch Cup semi-final on Wednesday and Rotterdam police said the match will go ahead.

"There's less rivalry between Feyenoord and PSV than Feyenoord and Ajax but we'll be on extra alert on Wednesday," said Rotterdam police spokeswoman Marjan den Hollander.

After Sunday's match hundreds of Feyenoord fans, frustrated after their team's defeat, started throwing stones at the police who responded by dousing them with water cannon.

The home supporters also tried to spark confrontation with a small group of Ajax fans still detained at the station near the Feyenoord stadium waiting for their bus transfer to Amsterdam.

"We kept eight of the 43 arrested fans in custody on suspicion of assault and battery," said Den Hollander.

"Now it is a case for the public prosecution and they will decide how long they will stay in custody."

The Mayor of Rotterdam, Ivo Opstelten, and his Amsterdam counterpart Job Cohen, who were both at Sunday's match, agreed that it might be a wise decision for Feyenoord versus Ajax matches to be played without visiting fans in attendance.

Feyenoord's general manager Jan Willem van Dop also added his support to the idea of banning away fans.

"With these matches the football has not been the most important issue for many years," said Van Dop. "It costs the community so much money that it is almost irresponsible." [/quote]
Interesting little quote...
All 1600 fans were sent back to Amsterdam on buses to face charges.
We weren't charged with anything... When we arrived at the ArenA late in the afternoon hundreds of riot police were waiting for us, but they were all bored to death and drinking cups of coffee. No-one was arrested as far as I could see.

Would have been silly, anyway: they knew that about 760 of us (out of 800) were innocent and did not destroy anything on that train. It must be a piece of cake to identify the ones that broke out of the train and ran around on the tracks: there was a police video team that taped everything

Idiots with their cameras... why didn't they arrest that group immediately? Nothing would have happened if they'd done that: train 1 could have moved on, train 2 would have remained quiet and after the game everyone could have hopped back on their trains and return to Amsterdam as planned. The havoc on train 1 started because we were standing there for an hour and Feyenoord hoolies started showing up in increasing numbers. And train 2 was wrecked because they suddenly started moving back to Amsterdam, whereas no-one had done anything wrong. The trouble on board train 2 started because of that.

K.
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Bericht door Blind3 » di apr 19, 2005 11:43 am

I say it again. ...what an over-reaction by those in authority .From Sunday's actions by police to the pontifications of mayors to the stuffed shirt politicos yesterday. About the only thing I agree with is the idea of holding people accountable for their actions.Whether vandalism and destruction of property , risking catastrophe(i.e. the eigen doel idiots), assault and battery,etc.. ,hold those responsible to account. I agree with Gerdi Verbeet. Conversely though, if fans DON'T BEHAVE like criminals,the majority of the Ajax away support, they should be permitted to attend.Thats what the windbagging exercises in political expedience don't seem ready to address.Seems like it's guilt by association for all.
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Bericht door carcajou » di apr 19, 2005 12:26 pm

There are informations re: uitkaarten on www.ajax.nl, I tried to Babelfish it, but nothing came out of it. Anybody ?

Does it deal with confiscated season tickets or something ?
meh :|

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Bericht door fc utreg » di apr 19, 2005 12:52 pm

my best mate was on the 1st train, he said he waited 8 hours in rottendam with no food or water :(

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Bericht door Dubbel » di apr 19, 2005 1:18 pm

My speculated guess is that somewhere in the police command chain somebody decided to let this one escalate by leaving the Ajax fans stranded at Rotterdam-F station. Reasons might be found in them not wanting to host away fans or in more financial means to the police, political goals or whatever. I don't buy that what happened yesterday were simply police mistakes.

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Bericht door Tom_ » di apr 19, 2005 2:27 pm

Kowalczyk schreef:If I would move away from Holland (which I would do if we didn't have Amsterdam) I would probably move to Sweden. Well, okay, first I would try to find a place I could afford in Central London or Manhattan. But after that I would go for Sweden. Stockholm has a similar feeling to it as Amsterdam. Beautiful place. And outside of Stockholm Sweden feels like Holland-when-we-still-had-our-shit-together. The social system, the attitude, the women... I really like it. My kind of place, completely.

Actually, when I was in Stockholm for the first time it was as hot as the devil's a##hole. Practically a heatwave.

K.

Mmm, off topic but I'd also love to live in Sweden (well somewhere in Scandinavia at any rate). Love the sound of the liberal society. I was actually considering doing my PhD there sometime in the future. The weather's nice in Australia but the government's crap and the society's very conservative.

How warm does it get in the peak of summer in Sweden?

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Bericht door Kowalczyk » di apr 19, 2005 3:23 pm

Carcajou schreef:There are informations re: uitkaarten on www.Ajax.nl, I tried to Babelfish it, but nothing came out of it. Anybody ?

Does it deal with confiscated season tickets or something ?
You know that we all had to give our 'away cards' to the police when we left Rotterdam (for ID purposes or something; although I must say I thought it was completely ridiculous).

Yesterday there was some unrest, because newspaper Het Parool reported that the ones who lost their away cards were also banned from the Willem II game on Thursday. That really freaked me out: I was punished badly enough already. I didn't do anything and I missed the Feyenoord game due to the behaviour of a small number of nutjobs, as well as a chain reaction of terrible mistakes by the mayor and the police. You can't ban people form another game without knowing whodunnit.

Today's announcement on Ajax.nl was a relief: everyone will be allowed to go to Tilburg. We have to show photo ID at the ArenA on Thursday and then we'll get our away cards back. The only crap thing: the mayor of Tilburg originally allowed free travelling for Ajax supporters (and why not?), but because of what happened on Sunday he turned it into a bus combi from the ArenA. That sucks and it makes no sense, but at least I'll get my away card on Sunday and I will be able to attend Willem II vs Ajax. Which is what it's all about to me, to be honest.

K.
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Bericht door Blind3 » di apr 19, 2005 3:32 pm

Returning away cards to the innocent? The first bit of common sense I've heard associated with this mess. My concerns are two fold: 1. politicians and bureaucrats are involved in this matter and resolution of same goes thru them;2. I can see situations where mayors and other bureaucrats use some perceived(maybe only by them) threat to keep Ajax supporters at home.Groningen revisted.
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Bericht door bluedaddy19 » di apr 19, 2005 5:50 pm

Dubbel schreef:My speculated guess is that somewhere in the police command chain somebody decided to let this one escalate by leaving the Ajax fans stranded at Rotterdam-F station. Reasons might be found in them not wanting to host away fans or in more financial means to the police, political goals or whatever. I don't buy that what happened yesterday were simply police mistakes.

i've been trying not to think this... but something stinks in this mess
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'Football Act' coming up!

Bericht door Kowalczyk » wo dec 06, 2006 10:55 pm

Finally...

Some of Holland's major political parties have finally come up with a concept for a 'Football Act' like they have in England: a special law which makes it easier to punish football hooligans. A majority of the Tweede Kamer (the Dutch parliament) seems to be supporting it. The most important change to current rules: authorities will have the opportunity to force convicted hooligans to report at the police station in their home town during away games of their clubs. If they fail to show up, it will be possible to hand them severe penalties.

So far, a majority of Dutch politicians were against such a law. They thought it would be too drastic and too much 'over the top'. Last week's riots during Nancy vs Feyenoord in France have made it a hot issue again - and this time it seems like it's going to happen.

I am not sure what to think of this 'Football Act', but there is one maor advantage to it: several of the political parties that support it, feel that the Football Act should be the end of the so-called 'combi rule' (obligatory, organized bus or train travel to away games). In the future it will be possible for police and legal system to come down on hooligans like a ton of bricks, so the combi rule is no longer deemed necessary...

That would be fantastic... We'll keep you posted in this thread!

K.
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Bericht door MIKE_ZUID2 (ASR_AFCA) » do dec 07, 2006 9:15 am

Come on Ko, you know they will not give up the combi...
:sad:

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Re: 'Football Act' coming up!

Bericht door AsgAarD_xxx » do dec 07, 2006 11:01 am

Kowalczyk schreef:Finally...

Some of Holland's major political parties have finally come up with a concept for a 'Football Act' like they have in England: a special law which makes it easier to punish football hooligans.

K.
Our gov do almost the same in Poland - we'll have special courts for rioters. When someone will be caught by the police during riots, he will go to a prison in 24 hours. I must say that in Poland riots are not as big problem as a few years ago, but it's still not good - especially in Kraków, where are 3 teams with quite big "firms". Anyway - you can go for majority of games without a fear that you'll be killed or something. Stadiums are - in general - pretty safe places. It's worse when you come out of them. The most dangerous places are train stations...

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Bericht door ajaxusa » do feb 19, 2009 6:56 am

No more away fans at Ajax - Feyenoord clashes
February 18, 2009

Matches between Ajax Amsterdam and Feyenoord Rotterdam will be played without away fans for the coming five years. This was announced on Wednesday. (Soccernews.com)

Wow... That's just.... sad.
Mark it 8, Dude.

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