21 Dec 2011: Ajax - AZ

[GangstaRiB]

Looks like it's over now. Will be interesting to see what the fallout of this will be.

Management of AZ is now saying that the players did not feel safe anymore. Everybody could see that Verbeek pulled his team of the pitch because of the red card, but already the jurisdictional bullshit is played now.

[SPL]

Feel sorry for the goalie but he will likely get a long ban and could face a criminal charge. Maybe the game will be replayed. Can Ajax be chucked out because of 1 idiot ??

Maybe they order the remaining 55 mins to be replayed we shall see. Had their goalie not started kicking the shit out of that idiot and left it to the stewards the game would have continued.

[Orange14]

Looks like it's over now. Will be interesting to see what the fallout of this will be.

Management of AZ is now saying that the players did not feel safe anymore. Everybody could see that Verbeek pulled his team of the pitch because of the red card, but already the jurisdictional bullshit is played now.

Correct, you could see on the replay that the minute the Red card was issued and the AZ players went after the match official that Verbeek was signalling them off the pitch. I guess after so much time without an incident that this must have caught the Ajax security by surprise (though they were pretty quick to come out after the hooligan and were there before Esteban took his first kick).

[Van basten]

The same thing here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_DCHZYz8oo

Red is what you get for kicking suporter whatewer he does. But i totally understand AZ keeper and those from this video.

Edit: We will get a fine for not securing safety, but a technical victory will go for us, because AZ left the pitch.

[souras84]

Guys this is nothing. As you can assume, being from Greece as I am, means I have witness this kind of behaviour many times... Usually your stadium is banned for one game or you get a fine. As for the player, he will get a supsension and AZ or their coach will be in serious trouble

[afcajax73]

i hope we get the win. its quite clear that they wanted the game over before it even began.

[Monkey Tonk]

If a team walks off the pitch they lose the game. Period. Doesn't matter what happened before that, or what their reasoning was. The safety of players is determined by the referee, not by a coach who feels duped. If the referee had ended the game, Ajax would have lost. But since the AZ coach did, Ajax should get the W. I would agree with the AZ coach's decision if the walk-off was a protest to the red card (absurd in this situation), which it may have been, but that would mean a battle between AZ and the KNVB. So they 'officially' presented it as a safety issue, which puts not the KNVB but Ajax in the position of the accused. The incident had just occurred, and a repeat incident was extremely unlikely, so leaving the pitch because of a continued safety issue has crocodile tears all over it.

Ajax will end up with a huge fine, regardlessly. Rightly so.

As to the person who attacked the goalie, if it were up to me he'd be behind bars for quite a long time. Of course, in Holland you can murder someone and be out of jail ten years later, so that leaves a short measuring stick for crimes like these. Six years in prison is considered unacceptable for anything but the worst crimes. Does make you wonder about those high school years... ;)

[acab]

AZ are just hypocrite c***s!!!! Why Verbeek don't call the players back in the dressing rooms right after the incident? He just went mad becouse of the red card, witch was absolutly deserved! If this red card wasn't shown, Az would never leve the pitch. As for the fan - i heard he's 19 i drunk.So what, none of yo haveu done any stupid thing as a teenager? Leve the dude allone. And all the bullshit for "long time behind bars" are just disgusting! For what? For letting this 2 meters long golceeper kicking you, while you on the ground? Some of you must go outside more often, boys

[Kowalczyk]

AZ are just hypocrite c***s!!!! Why Verbeek don't call the players back in the dressing rooms right after the incident? He just went mad becouse of the red card, witch was absolutly deserved! If this red card wasn't shown, Az would never leve the pitch. As for the fan - i heard he's 19 i drunk.So what, none of yo haveu done any stupid thing as a teenager? Leve the dude allone. And all the bullshit for "long time behind bars" are just disgusting! For what? For letting this 2 meters long golceeper kicking you, while you on the ground? Some of you must go outside more often, boys

I won't start a discussion with you (we think totally differently about the guy who attacked the AZ goalkeeper, but that's okay...), but I want to ask you one thing: can you please mind your language a little bit?

Thank you, mate.

K.

[Monkey Tonk]

AZ are just hypocrite cunts!!!! Why Verbeek don't call the players back in the dressing rooms right after the incident? He just went mad becouse of the red card, witch was absolutly deserved! If this red card wasn't shown, Az would never leve the pitch. As for the fan - i heard he's 19 i drunk.So what, none of yo haveu done any stupid thing as a teenager? Leve the dude allone. And all the bullshit for "long time behind bars" are just disgusting! For what? For letting this 2 meters long golceeper kicking you, while you on the ground? Some of you must go outside more often, boys

In the unlikely case that you're serious. Drunk drivers would love your argument. He's 19 and an adult.

[Kowalczyk]

What I think is a shame, is the fact that representatives of both clubs (AZ and Ajax) have only said the things that are smart from a jurisdiction point-of-view. That's a bit... cynical.

K.

[Philippe]

No one approves the drunk fan. But it's clear on video that the AZ goalie behaved like a madman.
http://nos.nl/video/324460-ajaxsupporte ... z-aan.html

All right, the fan was drunk. But what did the goalie take before the game ?

The decision of the referee is correct.

[Monkey Tonk]

No one approves the drunk fan. But it's clear on video that the AZ goalie behaved like a madman.
http://nos.nl/video/324460-ajaxsupporte ... z-aan.html

All right, the fan was drunk. But what did the goalie take before the game ?

The decision of the referee is correct.

Self-defense. If someone is insane enough to attack a player on the pitch, how is the player supposed to know what the limits of that insanity are? Is the guy going to pull out a weapon next? Put yourself in the position of the goalie. This was potentially, in the moment itself, a life or death situation, and the goalie had every right to interpret it as such. The attacker was lucky to get off with a few bruises. (for the record, I just watched the images for the first time, and was expecting far worse than a couple of kicks against ... the legs. That's a big deal? Judging from the comments I was expecting the attacker to be half dead. Absolutely zero criticism towards the goalie in my book.).

This incident does make me think that there should be a special kind of 'hooligan law', with penalties outside of the regular norm. There is nothing to be gained from these type of crimes, so it's only about the cult status these kids will get with their peers. It's far more important, to me, to guarantee the players safety than what people may think about the severity of the jail term. I have no doubt that the Dutch will be lenient as always, but I would give him ten years (that means he's out in five). I realize that this will sound crazy in Europe, but I think any hooligan would protect his pals from making this kind of mistake if the penalty was loud and clear. The whole fun and heroism would be out of it.

Verbeek, the AZ coach, made a great statement by pulling his players off the pitch in protest to the red card. But then the political wheels started turning, and now we have -yet another- political mess.

[acab]

@Kowalczyk,
sorry mate, i was mad about what happened.
But listen, what would happen if every coach start to act like Verbeek after a deicision, witch is against his team? This is not a statement, az are trying to show themselfs lika e victims, and that's not the case!
As for "drunken drivers" and my statemant...c'mon man, don't turn my wodrs like a jesuit monk. Nothing serious happened, till Verbeek desided he doesn't like the referee's decision.

[Philippe]

This was potentially, in the moment itself, a life or death situation, and the goalie had every right to interpret it as such.

Very funny. The drunk guy did not even hit him. And there was some Arena steward running to him.

[Monkey Tonk]

This was potentially, in the moment itself, a life or death situation, and the goalie had every right to interpret it as such.

Very funny. The drunk guy did not even hit him. And there was some Arena steward running to him.

So the goalie knew, when he turned around to see this madman right behind him that:
1) he was drunk
2) he had no weapon
3) he would 'not even hit him'
4) stewards were right there (too late) to protect him.

We live in different parts of the world, my friend. The safety of the goalie was very much at risk. If you'd show up right behind me, with the obvious intent of attacking, guess what? No mercy. I'm not surprised that the soft European approach struggles with the concept of self-defense, though.

[acab]

This was potentially, in the moment itself, a life or death situation, and the goalie had every right to interpret it as such.

Very funny. The drunk guy did not even hit him. And there was some Arena steward running to him.

So the goalie knew, when he turned around to see this madman right behind him that:
1) he was drunk
2) he had no weapon
3) he would 'not even hit him'
4) stewards were right there (too late) to protect him.

We live in different parts of the world, my friend. The safety of the goalie was very much at risk.

And where do you live? What weapon? Where in the world the stewards are letting people with weapons in the stadiums? I don't understand why you are taking the side of az?

[Monkey Tonk]

And where do you live? What weapon? Where in the world the stewards are letting people with weapons in the stadiums? I don't understand why you are taking the side of az?

First of all, this has nothing to do with Ajax or AZ. This is about guaranteeing players safety.

Where do I live? A country where the sky is the limit, where people are taught to take responsibility for their own lives and actions. A culture very different from the soft European one, that doesn't really like taking full responsibility for oneself and therefore doesn't expect it of others either.

Where do stewards let people with weapons in the stadium? Maybe the same one where stewards allow a fan on the pitch to attack a goalie? Again, this happened in an instant. The goalie had no time to sit down and reason through it, or picture the stadium checkpoints. He could have been killed, in the worst case. You guys are all talking in retrospect, already knowing the outcome of the incident. The attacked goalie had no way of knowing that outcome.

[SPL]

Here in England the police would have arrested the goalie as well and charged him .

The goalie actually started kicking the guy when he was on the ground and at that stage did not need to do so.The referee has said he could at that stage have walked away.
Having watched it several times I have to say the goalie was wrong ,even though severly provoked.

The thug probably deserved it but once on the ground with security people finally on hand you cannot just kick the shit out of someone.

So Ajax may get fined and kicked out but should AZ get away with it and be allowed to continue?

AZ coach called his players off because of the red card and imo by not continuing have conceeded the game. Again the referee said there was no safety problem.

If Ajax are kicked out what will be the consequences of our first game in January ie at Alkmaar? I can see many so called Ajax fans going there to cause trouble. If AZ are kicked out will the Ajax players feel safe going to Alkmaar??

A sad day for football in Holland and for Ajax. The club has no one in charge and all those at the top are squabbling like kids and going to court etc .All this having been cheated out of the CL

[Monkey Tonk]

Agreed. Horrible day for Ajax. Only good thing is that nothing serious happened to the goalie. That would have destroyed the name of Ajax around the world.

After thinking about this some more. Ajax should just come out and give the game to AZ. Don't even argue about the details. Just give them the game and move on.

[acab]

And where do you live? What weapon? Where in the world the stewards are letting people with weapons in the stadiums? I don't understand why you are taking the side of az?

First of all, this has nothing to do with Ajax or AZ. This is about guaranteeing players safety.

Where do I live? A country where the sky is the limit, where people are taught to take responsibility for their own lives and actions. A culture very different from the soft European one, that doesn't really like taking full responsibility for oneself and therefore doesn't expect it of others either.

Where do stewards let people with weapons in the stadium? Maybe the same one where stewards allow a fan on the pitch to attack a goalie? Again, this happened in an instant. The goalie had no time to sit down and reason through it, or picture the stadium checkpoints. He could have been killed, in the worst case. You guys are all talking in retrospect, already knowing the outcome of the incident. The attacked goalie had no way of knowing that outcome.

C'mon man! You can't be serious! Fans invade on the pitch in every country, even on the CL-finals, World cups and EC. How Esteban could be killed? I'm starting to think, you are some cousins or something. And what "soft european culture"?? The countries here have so different culturеs, man. And, don't forget, Esteban actualy lives and plays in such "soft culture", not Afganistan or Iraq, for god's sake. Ne knows what to expect, and thats not a teenager with a gun in the stadium. So don't justifie him!

[SPL]

On the BBC report they quoted a Dutch FA official who said the result would be one of 3 choices

Play the remaining minutes of the game
Play it again
leave the result as it is.

When Excelsior v AZ was fogged off at HT the other week they just made them play the remainder of the game. Thus if they do decide to play the game it is likely to be just the remaing 55 mins possibly 3 days before we go to AZ in the league.

PS Greg's goal was superb.

[Monkey Tonk]

And where do you live? What weapon? Where in the world the stewards are letting people with weapons in the stadiums? I don't understand why you are taking the side of az?

First of all, this has nothing to do with Ajax or AZ. This is about guaranteeing players safety.

Where do I live? A country where the sky is the limit, where people are taught to take responsibility for their own lives and actions. A culture very different from the soft European one, that doesn't really like taking full responsibility for oneself and therefore doesn't expect it of others either.

Where do stewards let people with weapons in the stadium? Maybe the same one where stewards allow a fan on the pitch to attack a goalie? Again, this happened in an instant. The goalie had no time to sit down and reason through it, or picture the stadium checkpoints. He could have been killed, in the worst case. You guys are all talking in retrospect, already knowing the outcome of the incident. The attacked goalie had no way of knowing that outcome.

C'mon man! You can't be serious! Fans invade on the pitch in every country, even on the CL-finals, World cups and EC. How Esteban could be killed? I'm starting to think, you are some cousins or something. And what "soft european culture"?? The countries here have so different culturеs, man. And, don't forget, Esteban actualy lives and plays in such "soft culture", not Afganistan or Iraq, for god's sake. Ne knows what to expect, and thats not a teenager with a gun in the stadium. So don't justifie him!

I believe Esteban grew up in Costa Rica. Middle America. Have you ever been there? I'm familiar with some of Middle America. Lots of guns and gang violence. Plenty of senseless killings. Similar to the US in that sense. Cops always assume a weapon here. They have no choice. That's why people always have to show their hands when they get pulled over on the freeway. You name two war zones, but that only shows me how little you know of the world.

In any case, the self defense argument that I outlined will be used here. No doubt about that.

As to the punishment for the hooligan. Let's say there were 40 or 50 thousand people in the stands. The attacker basically stole their day. That's 40 or 50 thousand days... That's the kind of crime it is to me. I realize he can never pay that back, but it does put his little escapade on a scale that I would much prefer over the soft justice this moron will see.

[acab]

All dutch media are closing their ayes about what actualy happened. the reaction of Verbeek after the red card i mean. Nobody is talking about that. This was actualy the worst thing last night. Not the boy ruined the game, Verbeek did it!
@ Monkey Tonk
Why do you want Ajax to "give" the game to az? If this happens, i can tell you what happens next. An Ajax fan will sit among az supporters for the game in january, he will invade the pitch and pretend to atack Ajax-palyer. De Boer will call the team back in the dressingroom and than?

[Monkey Tonk]

@ Monkey Tonk
Why do you want Ajax to "give" the game to az? If this happens, i can tell you what happens next. An Ajax fan will sit among az supporters for the game in january, he will invade the pitch and pretend to atack Ajax-palyer. De Boer will call the team back in the dressingroom and than?

Because I want Ajax to take the high road, as well as the responsibility, and move on. There is nothing to be gained here (at least not anything I care about). Ajax should thank their lucky stars that the goalie was unharmed. That's enough for me at this point, because the alternative would have torpedoed the Ajax name.

I doubt your vision of the future will materialize. If it walks like a duck, and talks a duck, it's probably a ... duck.