Ajaxtalk

Ayman schreef:My line up would be of the Ajax of all time would be:-


______________________________Jongbloed_______________________________

____Suubier________Haan________________F.de Boer____________Krol_______

___Vansch'ipt______Cruijff____________Wouters____________Overmars

_________________ Bergkamp________Van Basten________________________

Did Jongbloed play for Ajax? :shock:

His clubs as known to me: DWS,DWS/A, FC Amsterdam, Roda JC, Go Ahead Eagles

Looking at all the players that have come up and then left the Ajax system, It kinda makes you think, what would have the teams history look like if they would have kept even some of these players thru their primes. Is there another club in the world that could put together a lineup all time that could compete?

Off hand: Juventus and Real Madrid. Easily...

they could compete, but could they win?

maybe a few brazilian clubs could put out some reasonable teams.

no other club anywhere could compete; that's why Ajax is world's best club; simple as that :yes:

De Kuyper schreef:It kinda makes you think, what would have the teams history look like if they would have kept even some of these players thru their primes.

This is one of my hobbyhorses, so here we go...

It is a big myth and a major misunderstanding that most of Ajax's great players left the club before their primes. Apart from Marco van Basten all of the players mentioned in our favourite line-ups were at Ajax in their primes.

Not too many great Ajax players won more trophies (domestically or internationally) with the clubs they moved to after their Ajax careers. Not a single player from the Great Ajax of the 1970s ever ruled the world with another club the way they did with Ajax. Not even Cruyff and Neeskens, who moved to Barcelona. They won more 'Big Ones' with Ajax in three years' time than Barcelona ever won.

Ronald de Boer? Patrick Kluivert? Edwin van der Sar? Or even Edgar Davids or Dennis Bergkamp? Did they win more silverware or play more European finals with any other club than with Ajax?

Answer: no.

Marco van Basten (AC Milan!) and Clarence Seedorf (several Champions League triumphs with several clubs) are the exception to the rule, but for most great Ajax players it only went downhill after their Ajax careers. And even if they had good careers after Ajax... In some cases they played very well for very good clubs in very good leagues (Bergkamp, Overmars, Litmanen), but without winning more silverware than they did with Ajax -- even in Europe.

The whole myth ("Ajax's great players always leave early and reach their highest peaks elsewhere") is bollocks, to be honest. Even in the 'dark present'. Okay, it is a safe bet that Zlatan Ibrahimovic will achieve more with Juventus than he did with Ajax. But Chivu? Van der Meyde? Or Trabelsi, Pienaar or De Jong...? Will they ever win 'the double' again, and eliminate Olympique Lyon, Arsenal and AS Roma in Champions League season? Yet to be seen, people. Yet to be seen.

K.

Yeah you are right about not winning the silverware, But Bergkamp left Ajax when he was 24 i think, and from the mid to late 90's was one of the best players in England. He could sure have helped in the Ajax 11 over that time. Edgar Davids left ajax about the same age as Bergkamp, and in his time in Italy, (minus last year with Inter) he was one of the greatest midfielders in the league. So they may not have taken home the trophies but how nice would it have been to have them both in the Ajax side from 95 to 2000. It would have sure strengthed our chances of taking home more trophies.

If you look purely at age, then yeah: most of them leave before they turn 25 (the De Boers, Litmanen and Van der Sar are the exceptions to the rule: they stayed 'til 27 or so). I guess most of the Ajax players in 1995-1996 knew that they could have won more trophies if they'd all stay at Ajax... but the big cash was waiting for them in Europe's biggest leagues. Ajax can not compete with that. Not in the past, not now and definitely not in the future. That's our lot in life, I'm afraid.

On the other hand... our ability to deal with that is what has made us big.

In 1987 Ajax won the European Cup Winners Cup with coach Johan Cruyff and players such as Van Basten, Bosman and Rijkaard. When those folks left, every sports journalist in Holland wrote that Ajax were now well and truly f*cked and that it had now become absolutely impossible for the club to ever compete with the big ones again.

Five years later we had Stefan Pettersson, Bryan Roy, Wim Jonk (for the assists) and Dennis Bergkamp (for the goals) -- and we won the UEFA Cup. They all left. Inter bought Jonk and Bergkamp as a 'duo', because they scored so many goals together. The Dutch press were unanimous in their judgement: Ajax had done it again, but now they were finished. The financial gap between Ajax and the big Italian and Spanish clubs was getting too wide. They were not going to keep up, and this was their last European trophy ever. 100% sure.

Turned out that the UEFA Cup of 1992 wasn't the end, but only the beginning: only three years later we'd scouted Litmanen, Overmars and Finidi and a new crop of youngsters (Kluivert, Davids, Seedorf) had come through the ranks. And there you go: two Champions League finals in a row. In fact: the CL final of 1997 was the first round in three full seasons of Champions League football in which Ajax didn't play. That record still stands today.

The team fell apart (again), that bloody Bosman Ruling arrived at exactly the wrong moment (namely when the contracts of our most valuable generation of football players ever were expiring...) and Ajax fell into a deep, black hole (not the first time). The Dutch press sang the same old song again: over, finished, the rat race lost, etc. It was now impossible for a Dutch club to ever win a European trophy again. But Feyenoord won the UEFA Cup in 2002, Ajax were ten seconds away from the semi-final of the Champions League in 2003, FC Porto won it in 2004 and PSV were in the semis in 2005.

Conclusion...?

Of course: it's getting harder and harder, especially because the UEFA keeps making the Champions League more 'giant-friendly' every season. The last time Ajax were in a European final will be 10 years ago this year. But we weren't in a European final for 14 years between 1973 and 1987, and that wasn't exactly the end of Ajax, as we know now. Never say never.

Wouldn't it be fun to travel back to the fall of 1985 in a time machine and say to an Ajax supporter: "So, we have three European trophies now, right? I bet you: we will win another three in the next ten years." He would have told you you are absolutely and totally out of your mind.

We're Ajax. You can knock us down, but you can never knock us out. We always climb out of the shit. Let all of the world's football professors tell each other that the Bosman Ruling was fatal for Ajax. We've heard it ten times before and the more they are convinced, the more fun it will be to kick them in the bollocks and lift our fifth one one day.

K.

Absolute brilliant post Ko you have summed up 100% what is so fantastic about Ajax.
This is what is so fascinating about this club and the trait which everybody throughout the football world admires.

Ko, youre post made me feel proud to be an Ajax supporter.

Thanks

Yeah i think OPS is right, thats got my vote for Post of the year

OPH i mean, sorry mate

Kowalczyk schreef: Of course: it's getting harder and harder, especially because the UEFA keeps making the Champions League more 'giant-friendly' every season.

AH AH !!!

I've been waiting for this moment for so long now. This very moment where you'd be wrong.
The time has come :worshippy: :) ;) <----- DON'T MISS THESE !!!

I totally fail to see how Michel Platini (successfully) pushing the return of the good old knock out stage after the first pool stage makes the Champions' League "more giant friendly". On the contrary, it establishes a balance between the big and the less big, and it could be a good thing for us.

carcajou schreef:

Kowalczyk schreef: Of course: it's getting harder and harder, especially because the UEFA keeps making the Champions League more 'giant-friendly' every season.

AH AH !!!

I've been waiting for this moment for so long now. This very moment where you'd be wrong.
The time has come :worshippy: :) ;) <----- DON'T MISS THESE !!!

I totally fail to see how Michel Platini (successfully) pushing the return of the good old knock out stage after the first pool stage makes the Champions' League "more giant friendly". On the contrary, it establishes a balance between the big and the less big, and it could be a good thing for us.

Financially, the Champions League is certainly more giant-friendly. The pot of CL money is unevenly distributed to the clubs, more for the bigger clubs in the bigger leagues. Two years ago, for example, Chelsea earned two times more of UEFA's prize money for getting knocked out in the group stage than Porto earned for winning the whole damn thing. Over time, that kind of scheme certainly gives a financial advantage to the big clubs.

Great post Ko. :bis: :cheer:

AjaxPDX schreef:

carcajou schreef:I totally fail to see how Michel Platini (successfully) pushing the return of the good old knock out stage after the first pool stage makes the Champions' League "more giant friendly".

Financially, the Champions League is certainly more giant-friendly. The pot of CL money is unevenly distributed to the clubs, more for the bigger clubs in the bigger leagues. Two years ago, for example, Chelsea earned two times more of UEFA's prize money for getting knocked out in the group stage than Porto earned for winning the whole damn thing.

Spot on, AjaxPDX.

The whole financial structure of the Champions League today was designed for the big spenders.

K.

Kowalczyk schreef:

AjaxPDX schreef:

carcajou schreef:I totally fail to see how Michel Platini (successfully) pushing the return of the good old knock out stage after the first pool stage makes the Champions' League "more giant friendly".

Financially, the Champions League is certainly more giant-friendly. The pot of CL money is unevenly distributed to the clubs, more for the bigger clubs in the bigger leagues. Two years ago, for example, Chelsea earned two times more of UEFA's prize money for getting knocked out in the group stage than Porto earned for winning the whole damn thing.

Spot on, AjaxPDX.

The whole financial structure of the Champions League today was designed for the big spenders.

K.

Nahhhh, who cares about money. I was talking about winning the competition. With this new formula, we have MORE chances to grab the the Cup, period.

Having the money doesnt win the championships, but the Chelseas, Real Madrids, and Juves, who can afford to buy and keep players are the teams that are always there playing in the final rounds.

Kowalczyk schreef:
We're Ajax. You can knock us down, but you can never knock us out. We always climb out of the shit. Let all of the world's football professors tell each other that the Bosman Ruling was fatal for Ajax. We've heard it ten times before and the more they are convinced, the more fun it will be to kick them in the bollocks and lift our fifth one one day.

K.

Well said mate. Well said. It gives us hope in our times of darkness.

carcajou schreef:Nahhhh, who cares about money.

Every football club in the world does...

I was talking about winning the competition. With this new formula, we have MORE chances to grab the the Cup, period.

It is a good thing that the idea of a second group phase was dropped and that they reverted to a knock-out system from the second round. But the richest clubs don't like the idea and are now pressurizing the UEFA to change the seeding system, so that the top clubs from Italy, Spain, Germany and England can not be paired in early rounds.

Another disgusting, scandalous proposal. The last time they came up with a proposal like that (the new plan for money distribution) the UEFA reacted like cowards and gave them what they wanted. I wonder what they will do this time... I wish Mr Platini and his mates a lot of wisdom.

K.

Kowalczyk schreef: Another disgusting, scandalous proposal. The last time they came up with a proposal like that (the new plan for money distribution) the UEFA reacted like cowards and gave them what they wanted. I wonder what they will do this time... I wish Mr Platini and his mates a lot of wisdom.
K.

Michel Platini is all but a money man, trust him on this one. If he has to put his pressure in the balance, it will be in favour of the little and thus in the favour of football. I firmly believe he will.

De Kuyper schreef:Having the money doesnt win the championships, but the Chelseas, Real Madrids, and Juves, who can afford to buy and keep players are the teams that are always there playing in the final rounds.

Here you go. Chelsea just got Maniche and Real Cicinho (fantastic player) and Cassano (really good too). I wish we could have that much money sometimes.

So we could have bought some more Soncks. :D

carcajou schreef:
Nahhhh, who cares about money.

Everyone. Quite simply, for better or worse (worse in my opinion), money is the main driving force of football. Period.

AjaxPDX schreef:

carcajou schreef:
Nahhhh, who cares about money.

Everyone. Quite simply, for better or worse (worse in my opinion), money is the main driving force of football. Period.

Don't you "Period" me PDX :)

I, for one, don't give a shit about money. If I did, I'd be supporting CH€£$€A.