Ajaxtalk

Venezuelan Ajacied schreef:
By the way how do you say Voetbal ????

Arthur schreef:Your version of 'voetbal' is correct, SE6Ajacied.

The 'v' does indeed sound like Venezuela, not like an 'f'. It would only ever be pronounced an 'f' at the end of a word, but that never happens in Dutch.

Venezuelan Ajacied schreef:By the way how do you say Voetbal ???? Does the "V" sound like the "V" of Venezuela or does it sound like an "F"

carcajou schreef:

Arthur schreef:Your version of 'voetbal' is correct, SE6Ajacied.

The 'v' does indeed sound like Venezuela, not like an 'f'. It would only ever be pronounced an 'f' at the end of a word, but that never happens in Dutch.

Errr, the 'v' in Venezuela sounds like a 'b'. Pretty much Benessu[e]la.

So you probably mean the sound of Venezuela in English, right ?

Kowalczyk schreef:

Venezuelan Ajacied schreef:By the way how do you say Voetbal ???? Does the "V" sound like the "V" of Venezuela or does it sound like an "F"

Interesting one. The letter V in Van der Vaart is pronounced exactly the same way as the V in English (van, voucher, vegetable, variety).

But the Amsterdam accent is sharper and harsher sounding than 'normal' Dutch. People with an Amsterdam accent will pronounce the V as an F and the Z as a sharp S. So indeed: many Amsterdammers pronounce Van der Vaart as Fan dur Fart and when they speak English they will say 'ferry colt' instead of 'very cold'.

The best examples of a thick Amsterdam accent at Ajax, are Gerard van der Lem (coach-assistant) and Nigel de Jong. And of course, old-timers such as Bobby Haarms. Johan Cruyff has a very thick Amsterdam accent as well. People in Holland will recognize it from a hundred miles' distance (Amsterdammers are loud enough for that... :D ).

K.

Cedric_AeF schreef:

Kowalczyk schreef:When you people tell family or friends that you support this Dutch football team named Ajax, how do you pronounce it?

I think it mainly depends of the person we are talking with... I mean : if I discuss of Ajax with a friend using the correct pronunciation, he won't understand me. So I switch the pronunciation in accordance with the nationality of the audience.
But there are some words more difficult than other, and whatever the pronunciation, I'm not understood... :D I can think of FC Groningen for example.

SE6Ajacied schreef:This isn't really Ajax Trivia but it follows on from our discussion on Dutch pronunciation. Something I've been curious about but have never asked anyone - our old "friend" Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink. Please can someone explain that surname. The "of" sounds very English but I assume it's not - my Dutch/English dictionary gives two very obscure looking meanings in Dutch. Also, I've heard him referred to as both "Vennegoor" and "Hesselink", which is correct.

Like I said, very obscure and trivial, just something that bugs me every time I see the name.

Toen na de invoering van de Burgerlijke Stand in 1811 iedereen een naam moest kiezen, wist menigeen niet precies hoe hij heette, zodat soms beide namen geregistreerd werden. Daaraan danken we de dubbele namen als Geerding Johannink, Vennegoor of Hesselink, Wissink ook Geerdink. Te Riet ook genaamd Scholten.

http://tesellefamily.com/ned_content/ne ... hfd_03.htm

Roughly translates to:
When the government started to register person records in 1811 everybody had to provide a name. A lot of people didn't know their name exactly and as a result some provided multiple names. To that we owe names like Geerding Johannink, Vennegoor of Hesselink, Wissink ook Geerdink. Te Riet ook genaamd Scholten

Dubbel schreef:Perhaps you can help me with this one. What is a Ham? Ham as in Tottenham, Nottingham, West Ham etc. Often wondered but never dared to ask...

SE6Ajacied schreef: So we can blame the French (Normans) ;) that Nottingham is not now called "Snottingham" (probably just as well)

Dubbel schreef:Thanks. If I ever get this one for my one million dollar question I'll owe you one. :xyxthumbs:

SE6Ajacied schreef:Why do you ask?

Frans schreef:How do you explain 'Hamilton'?

Arthur schreef:The official names use 'ij' (Sneijder, Kuijt, Cruijff), but since the pronounciation of 'ij' and 'y' are the same they are sometimes substituted to make it easier to read for foreigners.
I'm not familiar with any rules regarding 'ij' and 'y', but since these are names, they are not really bound by rules anyway. They're just what they've been since some ancestors chose them.

The Dutch alphabet (equally for the Netherlands and Belgium; there is only one standard language and one alphabet) has 26 letters. The last three are x, y, z. In many Dutch primary schools they are taught as x ij z, and the y, when spelling, is called "Griekse y" (= "Greek y"), but pronounced "Griekse ei", or just "ij". Also "i-grec", which is a French loan. This may be because the example IJsbeer is easy to understand for six-year-olds, but words that start with a Y are invariably difficult and learned.

In print ÿ and ij look very different, and ij and ij are practically the same, but in the handwriting of most Dutch speakers ÿ and ij are identical, but an ij can be distinguished from the combination of i and j. In case of the capital letter IJ this is even more true.

Those who say ij is a letter want it between x and z, but never manage to agree what to do with the y then. That letter is also needed, because it is used as a variable in mathematics, and for spelling words of Greek origin, such as "systeem". Some say there should be 27 letters, but don't know whether it's x y ij z or x ij y z. Some want to change the existing spelling and abolish the y altogether. But there is no official support for those suggestions.

Although dictionaries, at least since 1850, invariably sort ij between ih and ik, some encyclopaedias, and all telephone directories in the Netherlands (not in Belgium!), sort ij and y together; not one after the other, but together as if they are the same, intermixed. This is practical, because many surnames have non-standard spellings; so now Thijssen and Thyssen appear together, and you can find them without having to know the exact spelling. It also helps find names of Frisian origin, such as Sijbrandij and Sybrandy.
Even with this special sorting order, De Bruijn and De Bruyn are together, but De Bruin is not. In dictionary order, De Bruijn and De Bruin would be close, but not De Bruyn.

Personally, I think the best solution is to treat ij as a combination of i and j, just like oe, ei, eu and many others are combinations with a special meaning. Then the capitalisation of words beginning with IJ (in names, or at the start of a sentence) is an exception, a special case. So is the incorrect, but practical sorting of telephone directories.
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/nlij_en.htm