Ajaxtalk

philippe schreef: I remember all the drama 2 years ago on this forum because of a 0,50 square meter 10 mn life long banner about Kalou ... strange days

That was premeditated.

philippe schreef:
I remember all the drama 2 years ago on this forum because of a 0,50 square meter 10 mn life long banner about Kalou ... strange days

The funny thing is that you were on the other side at the time ("oh no, it was just a joke, there aren't racist Ajax fans blah blah blah")...

But when it's Perez, he must be kicked out of the club because you "don't want Ajax reputation to be ruined by a racist". I can't see where is the coherence, but I'm not surprised.... ;)

That's a pretty damn good point, Cedric...

K.

I've purposely been trying to keep up out of this debate up to now apart from an initial reaction but I'll make a quick post now.

Phillipe has a point - I don't want to see the clubs name disgraced down by any rascists either but I don't think that's happened here. What happened was dreadful, no excuses but the club and player have issued statements and I think I read somewhere that Perez will do work with minority ethnic children etc. I think if he ever does anything like that again then he's out on his ear - I wouldn't sell him, I suspect Dutch employment law will allow the club to sack him on the spot for gross misconduct with his contract cancelled.

I don't expect Perez to become one but for example there's plenty of anti-rascist campaigners in this country who've come from the far right BNP/NF etc. People can change and I think we have to give the guy some credit for his actions so far after ther event. The statement seemed genuine enough, talking about his kids etc.......hopefully we can let this one rest and nothing like this happens again.

If it's not "coherent" to say that the Kalou banner was very much exaggerated, and now think that a racist player should be sent away, how is it "coherent" the other way round : to be so deeply shocked by that banner, and now think that apologies are enough for openly and public racist abuse from one of our player to be forgotten ?

Do you have problems with logic ?

Anyway, it does not take a genius to realize that our players' public behaviour has a huge impact on the club's image.

But you really don't like contradiction, quite obviously it has become a problem.

Let's get rid of Perez anyway.

Ok this is when I step in. First of all I would like to start off by saying that I am not trying to turn this into a debate, I am merely expressing my point of view. Under no circumstances should any racist remark be pardoned, especially in the current climate that we are living in, on and off the football field. Personally I have been subjected to racial abuse, most of which were not provoked, the people here who are defending Perez, I would like to know if they have experienced any form of racial abuse. Now for Perez to shout racial abuse to an official, there is absolutly no justification for this. If he was working in a different industry he would be up for a discaplinary panel. But possibly because of his qualities on the field, it doesnt apply to this case, however you cannot excuse the inexcusable.

dws said:





[/quote]Have you led a blameless life?[/quote]


No one is an angel but as we are all aware racial abuse is a crime in alot of countries, its just disgusting that only a slap on the wrist is given to perez (six match ban and 12k euros). Overall, in my view Mr Kenneth Racist Perez is guilty.

Ayman schreef:Ok this is when I step in. First of all I would like to start off by saying that I am not trying to turn this into a debate, I am merely expressing my point of view. Under no circumstances should any racist remark be pardoned, ..............absolutly no justification for this. If he was working in a different industry he would be up for a discaplinary panel. But possibly because of his qualities on the field, it doesnt apply to this case, however you cannot excuse the inexcusable.

.

blimey, this is turning into a big debate, I'm fortunate enough to be the "right" skin colour not to have experienced much (notice I don't say any) racial predudice in this country (UK). I like to think I'm very anti-racist (I'm normally called extreme lw), However, Perez has been subject to a disciplinary panel (KNVB) and has been punished. However much we like it (or not) we're not able to cast people who make such comments into some sort of dustbin as that will merely make them more "afflicted" and is likely to re-inforce their predudicable views by making them into more of a taboo and unspoken truth (think about it in real society (non football) with any other type of criminals/misfeants). I'd certainly say that this guy shouldn't be team captain or anything like that but by overly demonising him we will surely just be re-inforcing the persecution culture of the real hard-core rascists. How much better to have someone like Perez (who I presume is generally a straight-up sort of guy) working against prejdudice and demonstating that he was wrong? That's not about brushing things aside or forgetting (motto forgive-not forget) bit in the real world we as sensible society need to not make martyrs of the far right.

I hate to say it but if Perez was sacked (for example) that's exactly what we would be in danger of doing. Our team is right in the centre of one of the most culuturaly mixed areas of Amsterdam - let's step up our community activity in Bijlmer and other such areas - (with Perez at the fore) to really show our intentions.

I find it incredibly hard to defend racism (basicly indefensible) but in this case - In case I'm accused - I don't think I am, just trying to present a measured response.

I'm not meaning to contradict myself but I do have to say there's something of a mindset issue here. I was just telling my partner about this for the first time and she asked me what Perez had said. I told her that I couldn't remember exactly and (in contrast to most Dutch phrases that I heard including expletives), the last thing I wanted to do was memorise it in case I used it by mistake or by not remembering what it meant. Perez is Danish, I don't know how good his Dutch is - and that's not defending him, like I said - I deliberately didn't try to memorise the word.

SE6Ajacied said:

I'm not meaning to contradict myself but I do have to say there's something of a mindset issue here. I was just telling my partner about this for the first time and she asked me what Perez had said. I told her that I couldn't remember exactly and (in contrast to most Dutch phrases that I heard including expletives), the last thing I wanted to do was memorise it in case I used it by mistake or by not remembering what it meant. Perez is Danish, I don't know how good his Dutch is - and that's not defending him, like I said - I deliberately didn't try to memorise the word.

Perez called the official 'een kankerneger' I will leave you to figure that out.

Ayman schreef:Ok this is when I step in. First of all I would like to start off by saying that I am not trying to turn this into a debate, I am merely expressing my point of view. Under no circumstances should any racist remark be pardoned, especially in the current climate that we are living in, on and off the football field. Personally I have been subjected to racial abuse, most of which were not provoked, the people here who are defending Perez, I would like to know if they have experienced any form of racial abuse. Now for Perez to shout racial abuse to an official, there is absolutly no justification for this. If he was working in a different industry he would be up for a discaplinary panel. But possibly because of his qualities on the field, it doesnt apply to this case, however you cannot excuse the inexcusable.

dws said:

Have you led a blameless life?

No one is an angel but as we are all aware racial abuse is a crime in alot of countries, its just disgusting that only a slap on the wrist is given to perez (six match ban and 12k euros). Overall, in my view Mr Kenneth Racist Perez is guilty.

You can ask anyone on the Dutch side of the forum how much racism disgusts me. So please don't take offense to my comments.

I honestly don't think that making a racist remark in the heat of the moment means that you're a racist. If the linesmen would have been a woman, Perez would have just replaced the word 'negro' with 'woman'. It was just a dumb outburst and Perez has been punished for it.

I wonder what kind of punishmend you would have liked Perez to receive?

Ayman schreef:SE6Ajacied said:

I'm not meaning to contradict myself but I do have to say there's something of a mindset issue here. I was just telling my partner about this for the first time and she asked me what Perez had said. I told her that I couldn't remember exactly and (in contrast to most Dutch phrases that I heard including expletives), the last thing I wanted to do was memorise it in case I used it by mistake or by not remembering what it meant. Perez is Danish, I don't know how good his Dutch is - and that's not defending him, like I said - I deliberately didn't try to memorise the word.

Perez called the official 'een kankerneger' I will leave you to figure that out.

I don't need to figure it out. I understand both of the words that form part of this phrase. What I'm trying to say (and it's not in Perez's defence) is that I'm quite deliberate in not memorising them. I think it would be very easy (in my personal case) to use insulting words in a foreign language without fully understanding their meaning - my Dutch is terribler though I have memorised a few choice phrases!. That's probably irrelevant though, Perez has lived in NL for a number of years and like you said, there's not much ambiguity in the words he chose. The situation I was thinking of was David Beckham who was sent off for Madrid a couple of years back for calling the linesman a "son of a bitch" in Spanish. Alledgedly he didn't realise exactly what he was saying or quite how culturaly offensive it was in Spanish......but as you say, not much ambiguity in what Perez said....! :nooo:

Perez made a mistake, and said something very, very stupid. We all agree on that. None of us are around him on a regular, daily basis, however, so none of us know whether he has broad racist beliefs or whether he made one foolish heated racist outburst... so it seems misguided to try and label him either way. He's apologized heavily, and at least on the surface, his apology appears heart-felt and genuine. He honestly appeared embarrassed by his actions. But who knows... maybe he's just a good actor. So now, basically there are two potential choices/paths to consider:

1. Suspend him for a handful of games, fine him some money, but allow him to try and make amends by coming back to the team, volunteering and working in the community, speaking out on the issue of racism, show to the fans and community that he's learned from his mistake, show that others out there can too, and basically, work to try and turn a negative into a positive.

2. Say that what he's done is completely unforgiveable, kick him off the team, tell him he's never welcome to come back, and forget about him for good.

I'd choose option 1 as it allows the possibility for education and growth on the subject in the community and in people's beliefs, while option 2 seems to just reinforce a negative without any positive development on actually combating racism in society.

Just my thoughts.

[quote="Thomas"] I honestly don't think that making a racist remark in the heat of the moment means that you're a racist. quote]

of course it does, and we have a disagreement here

So if you were to call a woman a dumb skank, that would mean that you have something against women?

Thomas schreef:

Ayman schreef:Ok this is when I step in. First of all I would like to start off by saying that I am not trying to turn this into a debate, I am merely expressing my point of view. Under no circumstances should any racist remark be pardoned, especially in the current climate that we are living in, on and off the football field. Personally I have been subjected to racial abuse, most of which were not provoked, the people here who are defending Perez, I would like to know if they have experienced any form of racial abuse. Now for Perez to shout racial abuse to an official, there is absolutly no justification for this. If he was working in a different industry he would be up for a discaplinary panel. But possibly because of his qualities on the field, it doesnt apply to this case, however you cannot excuse the inexcusable.

dws said:

Have you led a blameless life?

No one is an angel but as we are all aware racial abuse is a crime in alot of countries, its just disgusting that only a slap on the wrist is given to perez (six match ban and 12k euros). Overall, in my view Mr Kenneth Racist Perez is guilty.

You can ask anyone on the Dutch side of the forum how much racism disgusts me. So please don't take offense to my comments.

I honestly don't think that making a racist remark in the heat of the moment means that you're a racist. If the linesmen would have been a woman, Perez would have just replaced the word 'negro' with 'woman'. It was just a dumb outburst and Perez has been punished for it.

Thomas :xyxthumbs:, my sentiments entirely.

Ayman, you for one should not be so quick to label Perez a racist. During the World Cup you made some nasty remarks about Polish people. Most people on this forum took those remarks for what they were; stupid and insensitive, but no more than that.

basicly, only racists make racist remarks, Perez made a ugly racist comment, therefore he is a racist, and he should be banned from Ajax

plain simple

dws said:

Ayman, you for one should not be so quick to label Perez a racist. During the World Cup you made some nasty remarks about Polish people. Most people on this forum took those remarks for what they were; stupid and insensitive, but no more than that

Firstly, I was not 'so quick to label Perez' a racist, if you scroll up you can see how long the issue was going on for, I put my point of view across straight after SE6Ajacied. Also I accept my comments were repulsive. Any justifications? NO! Causes? YES. Living in London, with the influx of EU, alot of people have suffered racial abuse from them, excluding the 'white' living here e.g. SE6Ajacied. Now when your pounded with racial abuse by a vast majority of ethnic minority, your emotions are bound to take over your coherent thinking from time to time. Believe it or not, we have 2 part time polish maids who come and clean our house (No I am not rich), even they are heavily critical of their own people, and they dont even know or see each other, a coincidence? Nope! Now what was Perez's cause for his comments, just because a decision or several decisions went against him? The reason why myself and Phillippe have turned on him, is because he is allowed to get away with it, so far. with just over a handful of match-bans and a slap on the wrist fine. If he was working in an industry, he would be out before he could say 'sorry'. Another thing, its funny how some people are allowed to make racist remarks, or close to racist ones against Germans and Portuguese, just because we dont have any of those ethnic minority on our forum, it seems to be legitimate.

philippe schreef:basicly, only racists make racist remarks, Perez made a ugly racist comment, therefore he is a racist, and he should be banned from Ajax

plain simple

The Thought Police have spoken.

Oh yeah let's be "simple", kick out Perez and the problem is solved ! :nooo:

Seriously, AjaxPDX made a really good point yesterday, but of course, it's not that "simple" and thus, not easy to understand for everyone...

Ayman schreef:dws said:

Ayman, you for one should not be so quick to label Perez a racist. During the World Cup you made some nasty remarks about Polish people. Most people on this forum took those remarks for what they were; stupid and insensitive, but no more than that

Firstly, I was not 'so quick to label Perez' a racist, if you scroll up you can see how long the issue was going on for, I put my point of view across straight after SE6Ajacied. Also I accept my comments were repulsive. Any justifications? NO! Causes? YES. Living in London, with the influx of EU, alot of people have suffered racial abuse from them, excluding the 'white' living here e.g. SE6Ajacied. Now when your pounded with racial abuse by a vast majority of ethnic minority, your emotions are bound to take over your coherent thinking from time to time. Believe it or not, we have 2 part time polish maids who come and clean our house (No I am not rich), even they are heavily critical of their own people, and they dont even know or see each other, a coincidence? Nope! Now what was Perez's cause for his comments, just because a decision or several decisions went against him? The reason why myself and Phillippe have turned on him, is because he is allowed to get away with it, so far. with just over a handful of match-bans and a slap on the wrist fine. If he was working in an industry, he would be out before he could say 'sorry'. Another thing, its funny how some people are allowed to make racist remarks, or close to racist ones against Germans and Portuguese, just because we dont have any of those ethnic minority on our forum, it seems to be legitimate.

Perez was very contrite and did not in any way seek to justify his behaviour.
Sadly, I can't say the same about you.

aveslacker schreef:

philippe schreef:basicly, only racists make racist remarks, Perez made a ugly racist comment, therefore he is a racist, and he should be banned from Ajax

plain simple

The Thought Police have spoken.

as you like to call it, no free speech for racists, Perez out !

philippe schreef:

aveslacker schreef:

philippe schreef:basicly, only racists make racist remarks, Perez made a ugly racist comment, therefore he is a racist, and he should be banned from Ajax

plain simple

The Thought Police have spoken.

as you like to call it, no free speech for racists, Perez out !

Righty. And that sounds like a perfect final contribution to this discussion, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much for your input. Let's move on.

K.

Thomas schreef:So if you were to call a woman a dumb skank, that would mean that you have something against women?

Well of course it does.

Dws said:

Perez was very contrite and did not in any way seek to justify his behaviour.
Sadly, I can't say the same about you.

Once again you are wrong, just like your previous post when you said I was quick to condemn perez for racism, when I was not at all. Secondly If you look at my last message Where it says 'justification.NO! Causes. YES!' so for you to come back and say that I was justifying my actions is a poor argument.

Ayman schreef:Dws said:

Perez was very contrite and did not in any way seek to justify his behaviour.
Sadly, I can't say the same about you.

Once again you are wrong, just like your previous post when you said I was quick to condemn perez for racism, when I was not at all. Secondly If you look at my last message Where it says 'justification.NO! Causes. YES!' so for you to come back and say that I was justifying my actions is a poor argument.

I'm right on both counts. :yes: