Ajaxtalk

#14 schreef:to be fair:

today's Madrid lineup > today's ManU lineup

as in not even close. that said, Ajax isn't even competitive....

Disagree. We have 17 attempts for 13 to R.Mad. Very unfair score. Good play but bad luck.

I think we gave it a go, attacked them and tried to win. But our midfield again was suspect, also a few individual errors like Greg's indecisiveness cost us.

We can't go on with this set up in the middle. Janssen OR de Jong not both.

We tried to play some footie today. Failed to convert our chances. Shit happens.

We are able to create chances even in top-tier games. Nothing to be ashamed of after this game.

FDB needs to do some job about midfield. Probably he is a bit slow but at least he put Enoh as defensive midfielder and put a winger instead of a winger later. Better late than never.

We played well, and be proud.
Score is most unfair. Stats are : possession 51%, corners 6 for us to 1 for RM, attempts 18 for us to 13 to RM.

Downside : WTF is wrong with Franck about Janssen ?

philippe schreef:Downside : WTF is wrong with Franck about Janssen ?

In short. Nothing, Theo, as our deepest midfielder was not doing his job and even Siem had to come deep. Good decision imo to bring Enoh on. Possibly done a little late, he should maybe have started.

Not as bad as the final scoreline but Madrid were pretty disinterested in either offense of defense in the last 20 minutes. Better performance all around than last season. It's clear that once we figured out how to get the ball up into the attacking part of the field some opportunities were created. Two good saves by Casillas kept a clean sheet and Vertonghen was clearly unlucky off the great free kick by Eriksen (FdB, note that you don't need Janssen on the pitch at all). At this level passes have to be a lot quicker and cannot be slow balls otherwise they are intercepted and your team faces a vicious counterattack; you can get away with it in the league but not hear.

Vermeer was decent and can't be faulted on any of the goals. He was a little fortunate that Kaka missed the shot that would have been the fourth goal as Vermeer was going the wrong way. Vertonghen and Alderweireld both played well and Jan was good going forward on the couple of occasions he was able. He did get a piece of the third goal which was deflected into the empty net. I cannot say anything good about Van der Wiel and in this case silence if golden. Anita was agressive on defense and kept his cool. Problem is he should have been in the midfield today and is handicapped by being a right footed player on the left side. Janssen should not have made the trip. de Jong came back for the ball which was something new in an effort to create another option to bring the ball up. Eriksen was solid as usual trying to find space to make some plays. Boerrigter was good on the left wing and not good when he switched over. Sulejmani did little and maybe the injury is still affecting his play. Sigthorsson worked hard but still needs refinement in his play. Enoh was surprisingly alert and active when he came on (and also a bit lucky that he didn't get called for the chip at Kaka's ankle right outside the penalty box. I've seen that one called). Ebecilio neither helped or hurt the team in his brief appearance. Serrero had a shot but a fairly weak one.

Moving on from here we need to revamp the midfield and find a way to get them more involved in bringing the ball out of the back. It may have to wait until Boilesen is healthy and we can move Anita to his natural position. Zagreb fell to Lyon 0-2 so Europa football is still a possibility. I cannot see the team advancing in CL because of inexperience in the players and the manager.

I think when Janssen joined Orange and I were the only ones who thought we didn't need him or want him. I would have preferred Schaars or even Leroy Fer. But the player i really wanted was Wijnaldum, imagine him and Eriksen! and now Anita would be our settled DM.

Frank needs to quit this experiment and play Enoh, Siem or Janssen and Eriksen. Until Boilesen is fit then move Anita to DM if Enoh underperforms. The other thing could be to play Daley at LB or DM but that is not the answer for me.

Not alot to add . We must play a defensive MF and Janssen was poor tonight even Enoh looked ok for once . Sulejmani was struggling tonight not sure he is 100% over his injury!! .The 2 centre backs did well but we need a left footed left back although Anita was good enough. As for V d Wiel well he cannot defend as simple as that .Having cost us wins in the last 2 games at least I cannot blame him tonight .

will we ever see a enoh-eriksen-janssen midfield?

The whole Ajax sage has become excessively boring. Round and round and round we go. Same story over and over. New coach, few months of inspiration, then his little bag of tricks runs out, and back to f*cking square one we go.

I had hoped it would be different this time, after the 'Cruyff revolution' that would revive Ajax. Not going to happen guys. We can't win against the big money. If you want Ajax back on top, you better pray Europe goes bankrupt.

Monkey Tonk schreef:The whole Ajax sage has become excessively boring. Round and round and round we go. Same story over and over. New coach, few months of inspiration, then his little bag of tricks runs out, and back to f*cking square one we go.

I had hoped it would be different this time, after the 'Cruyff revolution' that would revive Ajax. Not going to happen guys. We can't win against the big money. If you want Ajax back on top, you better pray Europe goes bankrupt.

Europe, at least some of the countries, will probably head down the bankruptcy path; even Arsen Wenger acknowledges that (and he's an economist by training). It may or may not have an impact on football; who knows (the Greek clubs are a non-factor in Euro football competitions anyway).

I don't think that we are back at square one. There was a massive difference between this year's match against Madrid and last year. We have to remember the financial limitations of the club and as much as we would like to revisit glory days, it just is not going to happen. The combined transfer fees of Kaka and CR7 were in the neighborhood of €160M and amount that exceeds the Ajax team wage bill by a cool €110M. Can't compete against teams that print their own money.

Orange14 schreef: Can't compete against teams that print their own money.

Precisely.

Besides I thought the game was very different from last year's. Last season we travelled with Jol schoolboys' philosophy : our-guys-are-there-to-learn-from-the-best. We then got no play, no goal chances at all. Yesterday we fought bravely and should have scored at least once.
Last year's performance was shameful. I think the games agains RMad are my worst memory ever regarding Ajax games (with the 4-0 disaster in München). This season we can be reasonably proud.

I'm very proud of the performance and I have every confidence that Frank will come good, he's still learning at this level as are our players. I for one am not expecting '95 again any time soon, I just want us to play like Ajax and be brave and attack minded. Last night we did that, against a team that probably cost more than the ArenA.

Just tweak that midfield and you'll see us become better.

C'mon, who cares about the Champions' League anyway? The competition is a joke, and we're never gonna win it. Bank the TV money and concentrate on the Eredivisie.

Although I'd be quite happy if we end up in the UEFA Cup, if we get 4 points out of the matches against Dinamo we can still finish second if we win in Lyon—assuming they lose twice to Madrid...

Interesting read on the match, and Ajax's recent trend of beating weaker teams but getting stuck against stronger ones:

http://11tegen11.wordpress.com/2011/09/ ... rspective/

Real Madrid 3 – 0 Ajax:
Tactical trouble at Ajax from a wider perspective
Posted on 28 September 2011 by 11tegen11

In the much anticipated replay of last year’s Champions League group stage game ,where Ajax took a true battering and ended up losing 2 – 0 at Madrid, Ajax lost 3 – 0 this time at the Estadio Bernabeu. In terms of ‘face value’ Ajax provided more counter play – in fact their amount of 19 shots registered was higher than any Champions League opponent achieved at the Bernabeu since Bayern in the 2006/07 Champions League quarter final – but the final score line and the dominance expressed by Real’s front four left little to the imagination. Ajax failed the benchmark test that was supposed to show the progress made under manager Frank de Boer in the past year.

The wider perspective
Rather than picking on tactical situations of this particular match, or highlighting individual players’ performances, this might be a nice moment to reflect on the tactical shortcomings of Ajax’ optimistic wide forwards 4-3-3 system, which has failed to produce a European football goal for 433 minutes now. In fact, Ajax has failed to win a single match against opposition of equal quality so far this season. The Dutch Super Cup was lost to ten men Twente (1-2), while both the Eredivisie clashes at PSV (2-2) and at home against Twente (1-1) were drawn.

Two players coming in for quite some criticism for their performances during these matches are right full back Gregory van der Wiel and holding midfielder Theo Janssen. While it sometimes seems hard to suppress the knee-jerk reaction to blame the individual players at stake, at the same time such a reaction seems irrational and unfair. Dutch international Gregory van der Wiel definitely has the potential to play an important role for this Ajax team and Theo Janssen rightfully stood out as the Eredivisie player of the year last season, dominating both crucial Eredivisie matches and European fixtures for his club Twente.

So why is it that these two players seem to carry the burden of what’s going wrong at Ajax at this moment?

The ‘Ajax philosophy’
Ajax have shown difficulty beating opponents of equal or superior stature. At the same time, matches against inferior opposition are won relatively easily, as expressed by the recent club record of scoring twice or more in fifteen consecutive Eredivisie matches. And to be fair, the Eredivisie contains quite a lot of those inferior teams compared to the standards set by Ajax, both in terms of youth player development and the standards of player acquisition.

Manager Frank de Boer consistently has Ajax play in a wide wingers 4-3-3 formation, and the offensive nature of that formation is accompanied by a high pressing, possession based playing style. This way of playing football is deemed essential to expressing ‘the Ajax culture’ and is applied rigidly, with little room for modulation, apart from varying the individual players involved.

This way of using the 4-3-3 formation contrasts with most of the teams of equal or superior opposition that Ajax fails to produce results against, and it does so in exactly the full backs and holding midfielder areas of the pitch, where Van der Wiel and Janssen fail to deliver at present. While most other teams make quite clear choices to maintain the balance between offense and defense, De Boer has committed himself to an over-attacking formation that gets picked apart by decent opposition.

Other teams, as evidenced by the recently published UEFA Champions League technical report, maintain their balance either by covering their defensive line with conservative use of their full backs while playing a single holding midfielder, or by covering their offensive full backs by deploying two conservative holding midfielders. De Boer has made it abundantly clear that it is part of his ‘playing philosophy’ to use offensive full backs, while fielding only one holding midfielder, and that rigidness is causing trouble.

The Real Madrid goals
All three of Real Madrid’s goals provided excellent cues to the problem at stake. At the first goal, Ajax’ midfield was completely overrun by a brilliantly executed high speed one touch passing move. Both of Ajax’ full backs were overrun by Real’s front four as high as on the midline of the pitch. The second goal saw central playmaker Kaká in acres of space at the edge of the box after Theo Janssen had moved over to the right full back area to cover for Van der Wiel, leaving Kaká a playground of space in a crucial area. A second holding midfielder would have easily closed down that space. Finally, the third goal was preceded by an impressively well executed 60 yard Xabi Alonso pass that picked out advanced full back Arbeloa, indeed, free in Ajax’ right back area with Van der Wiel pressing too high up the pitch and Janssen still on his way back from covering duties at left back.

Tactical naivety
It is not the individual effort by Theo Janssen or Gregory van der Wiel that lies at the heart of the problem. One single holding midfielder simply can’t cover for full backs expressing offensive desires. Any side capable of quick ball circulation and witty movement along their offensive players will pick such a side apart.

Against inferior opposition this problem might be less exposed, although Ajax are still looking for their first clean sheet of the Eredivisie season, but the tactical naivety of demanding both offensive input from the full backs and playing a single holding midfielder will be punished when playing decent opposition, where the ‘I’ll just score one more than you do’ approach won’t work.

Meanwhile, Frank de Boer has moved himself into a difficult situation by proclaiming the status of ‘untouchable’ to the present playing style, stressing that this is the true Ajax philosophy. For now it is clear that he isn’t winning any important matches with it.

Orange14 schreef: I don't think that we are back at square one. There was a massive difference between this year's match against Madrid and last year. We have to remember the financial limitations of the club and as much as we would like to revisit glory days, it just is not going to happen. The combined transfer fees of Kaka and CR7 were in the neighborhood of €160M and amount that exceeds the Ajax team wage bill by a cool €110M. Can't compete against teams that print their own money.

Sure enough dropped the three points in the next match. Groningen...

F-U-C-K the CL.

The Frank effect has already passed. Otherwise you would still see the team improving. They wouldn't keep making the same mistakes, because he would know the answer to that and be able to teach it, with clarity, as well. Even if he was on par with Rijkaard, de Boer could only do so much with a team that's closer to Sparta than to Barca.