Ajaxtalk

This discussion ("why do we always fail in Europe?") is one in which we should not start dropping names. Name-dropping misses the whole point.

Ten Cate this... Sneijder that... What if Davids... What if Perez... Why did Van Geel... Jaakke here... Suárez there...

It misses the point. The essence of this problem goes much deeper, and is much more 'fundamental' than that.

For some reason we can't fucking crack it. And I don't know why.

Against a team of higher (or similar) quality than your own team, a great coach (instead of an alright coach) and superior fighting spirit (instead of 'normal' fighting spirit), might make the difference.

But Copenhagen and Slavia...? Look at the countries they're from, look at how many season ticket holders they have, look at the average salary of their players, look at their annual budgets, look at their UEFA coefficients... It just doesn't compare. Even with a shit coach, without Davids, without Sneijder, there is no way a club like Ajax can lose to such an opponent.

This is chronic under-achievement of the worst kind.

If there was a mathematic formula, with which you could calculate the achievements of a club, in relation to their UEFA coefficient, budget, etc., I don't think any CL or UEFA Cup participant of recent years will have a worse record than Ajax. I seriously believe that we must be one of the very worst under-achievers in UEFA competition, if you take our budget, turnover, players' salaries and number of season ticket holders into consideration.

I'm not asking for miracles. I could, for example, perfectly live with the campaign of 2005-2006...

After having eliminated Brøndby in the qualifiers, we were in pot 2 for the CL draw. And that's exactly how we performed in the group, we neither over-achieved nor under-achieved: a small defeat and a 0-0 draw against the pot 1 opponent (Arsenal), a draw in the away leg and a home win against the pot 3 opponent (Sparta Prague) and two wins, plus six goals, against the Champions League débutant from pot 4 (FC Thun).

Fair enough. That's normal.

In the knock-out stages we bumped into Inter. We gave everything we had and gave 'em a hard time in the home leg (2-2), but at the end of the day they were just a bit better than us: 1-0 - and game over.

Perfect. That's where we stand, and it's all I'm demanding. I will never complain about a European campaign like that.

What really freaks me out, though, is elimination by Lausanne Sports (UEFA Cup, 2000), FC Copenhagen (UEFA Cup, 2001), Club Brugge (CL, 2003), a defeat at Maccabi Tel-Aviv (CL, 2004), elimination by FC Copenhagen (CL qualifiers, 2006) or Slavia Prague (CL qualifiers, 2007).

I mean: come on!!! What the fuck is the problem???

The last time Ajax over-achieved in Europe was in 2002-2003: two wins against Olympique Lyon in the group, two 1-1 draws against Valencia and wins on aggregate (although they weren't knock-out rounds) against Arsenal and AS Roma. That's remarkable. Unusually good, and it would not be fair to make that the standard (and I won't).

Since that year we did not eliminate a single opponent with a higher UEFA coefficient than ourselves. This is not a disgrace, but our string of unbelievable stumbles against sides with much lower UEFA coefficients than ourselves is getting longer and longer and longer - and it's driving me absolutely nuts.

K.

Kowalczyk schreef: What really freaks me out, though, is elimination by Lausanne Sports (UEFA Cup, 2000), FC Copenhagen (UEFA Cup, 2001), Club Brugge (CL, 2003), a defeat at Maccabi Tel-Aviv (CL, 2004), elimination by FC Copenhagen (CL qualifiers, 2006) or Slavia Prague (CL qualifiers, 2007).

All those teams had nothing to lose. They are crap teams from crap countries (with all due respect) and they don't have any history, so it's one of the few games of their life and have no pressure... No one will seriously blame them if they don't make it against 'the great Ajax'.
It's exactly the opposite for Ajax : they have everything to lose. And they lose.

Sometimes, I wonder if by just changing the name of the club they would perform better... But, that's not the solution. They need some players with balls and not only Stam (ok, we have Davids but...). They also need a coach who can protect his team from this kind of pressure.

I'm coming to Amsterdam in September, thought I might drop my CV off to the board while i'm there.

I have no experience really, coached an Under 12s to 3rd, and played local league in my day. So really I fit the job description perfectly.

Only a small tactical knowledge. Hell I think I be hired in a second. Its a small amount more than we currently have.

Dear Dank,
I have a degree in law that I could lend you when you apply for the Chairman position.
Don't know a thing about cricket though. But you may ask around.

We need to have changes. Far reaching changes. Look at the players that they brought in. Colin, Luque, ..... Van Geel may have been good to squeeze money out of clubs but he is not bringing in the players that are going to do the job. I guess that HTC is also to blame in that respect as he has a say in who comes and goes.

That would be fine if our youth system was producing the Sneijders, vDVs, Bergkamps, van Bastens, etc. It would also be fine if our scouting nertwork would be brining in the Ibrahimovics, Midos, etc. But these areas are not working. We need to find the problems there and fix them. We need an integrated solution.

It also seems to me that Ajax were always competitive until we became listed on the stock exchange. This is competeting with success.

Something has to be done and fast. I am pissed off. I think that in protest, I will buy no Ajax jerseys or anything this year. I am ashamed to wear one of my jerseys in public after yesterday. It will be a long time until I can proudly put my Ajax jersey on again, I am sad to say.

They sold some of our best assets (Sneijder) just for the profit on the sale, and obviously have no clue how to replace him nor what to do with the money.
Amateurs.
How about a collective instment fund ?

Jaakke was on Studio Voetbal last night.
Maybe some of the locals who saw have a different opinion, but I thought he had nothing, but absolutely nothing, of interest to say.

The way he talked was as if everything was rosy in the garden.

I realise he has to provide confidence and has certain responsibilities given it's a publicly traded company, but really there was no frankness, no sense of urgency to improve the situation, no admitting the club is probably in the worst shape for many many years, no humility about getting knocked out of the CL, no regret the lack of success in bringing the right caliber of replacements during the transfer window, nothing....

Manneken Pis schreef:Jaakke was on Studio Voetbal last night.
Maybe some of the locals who saw have a different opinion, but I thought he had nothing, but absolutely nothing, of interest to say.

Huh .. no question asked about cricket ?

philippe schreef:

Manneken Pis schreef:Jaakke was on Studio Voetbal last night.
Maybe some of the locals who saw have a different opinion, but I thought he had nothing, but absolutely nothing, of interest to say.

Huh .. no question asked about cricket ?

Cricket's awesome. Are you following the Twenty20 world cup?

don't know a thing about cricket, but I heard Jaakke is a fan

philippe schreef:don't know a thing about cricket, but I heard Jaakke is a fan

Nope, Fontein used to play cricket on a high level in Holland (well... high level...).

Jaakke never touched a ball-like object in his live.

Cricket is played about 2 kilometres from the Arena in Amstelveen and Holland played in the main World Cup.

Twenty/20 World Cup is on at the moment from South Africa and Australia
are the favourites.Holland are not in this.


In the Uk the major cricket comp. comes to an end this week with Lancashire (Manchester based) leading my own Sussex(Brighton based, well its actually the posh end of Brighton called Hove) and we won it last year.Unlike footy you lose your players when internationals are on so 3 of our players are in the Twenty/20 WC.

For those who do not have a clue it is the most complecated game in the world but like footy once you are hooked there is no cure.

At 56 years of age the best bit this season is that I go and watch games with a 20 year old girl who is mad about the game!!

SPL schreef:
At 56 years of age the best bit this season is that I go and watch games with a 20 year old girl who is mad about the game!!

To quote Harold Steptoe: " You dirty old man"

Just to say that here in England Sussex are the Cricket champions for the second year running and 3rd time in 5 years. We won our last game at 12.30 on Sat( they last 4 days) and then had to wait for 5 hours for the other game to finish.
We all sat around drinking as it was sheer hell waiting( even though I was with my young girlfriend ) but we all went berserk when we had won.

I can now concentrate on Footy.

SPL schreef:Just to say that here in England Sussex are the Cricket champions for the second year running and 3rd time in 5 years. We won our last game at 12.30 on Sat( they last 4 days) and then had to wait for 5 hours for the other game to finish.
We all sat around drinking as it was sheer hell waiting( even though I was with my young girlfriend ) but we all went berserk when we had won.

I can now concentrate on Footy.

Congrats to Sussex! Amazing to see Mushtaq Ahmed taking wickets at his age -- kind of like Ottis Gibson being able to do it after all these years. It's a wonder why he hasn't been in the W. Indies squad lately.

will Ajax survive to Jaakke ?
not so sure !
this club belongs to the supporters. all those stupid people in charge should have the decency to resign :
too many wrong choices leading to a real disaster

Ajax need to find a way to leave the Dutch competition, it's the only way they can progress.

The Eredivisie doesn't provide enough TV revenue, and it doesn't provide enough competition.

Even if we could afford them, how can we attract top coaches and top playeres to come and play against the likes of V.V.V. Heracles or Sparta? Where's the motivation going to come from? Top players and top coaches like to test themselves against the best.

If you were Wesley Sneijder who would you rather play against? Barca, Seville and Getafe or NEC NAC and Excelsior??

We need to take another look at the Phoenix or Atlantic League projects, or failing that - a Benelux league. Either way it has to be supra-national, and it has to be competitive.

Excuse me but... this can be an excuse if Ajax had failed against Real, AC Milan or Manchester. Here we are speaking of elimination by teams from Croatia, Czech Republic or Denmark. It has nothing to do with TV rights, competition and so on, which are by far lower in those countries.

Cedric_AeF schreef:Excuse me but... this can be an excuse if Ajax had failed against Real, AC Milan or Manchester. Here we are speaking of elimination by teams from Croatia, Czech Republic or Denmark. It has nothing to do with TV rights, competition and so on, which are by far lower in those countries.

Cedric you've completly missed my point. Firstly, I wasn't making 'excuses' as you put it, but addressing the most fundamental problem facing Ajax today. Namely, that we can't attract the best people to come and work here, and when we grow our own people they skip town first chance they get. Why? because playing at Ajax is boring and poorly rewarded.

As regards the teams from Denmark and Croatia - the point is we are not losing to teams who are better than we are, we are losing because our players are terrified of failure.

Our budget is higher than PSV's. PSV meets all our targets in our 'beleidsplan' (long-term plan?)

The Purple Cow schreef:the point is we are not losing to teams who are better than we are, we are losing because our players are terrified of failure.

I completely agree with that (pressure, blabla) but then, I think the problem lies inside the club (I don't know who's at fault though), and not in the Eredivisie. The exemple of PSV mentionned above is quite clear. I don't think they have better players, I don't think they have a particularly brilliant coach, they definitely have less money, they play in the same country, but the results are quite differents. I don't figure out why.

Ajax need to find a way to leave the Dutch competition, it's the only way they can progress.

Blaming the Dutch competition for Ajax' problems is pretty bloody pathetic.
As you well know, AZ and PSV recently featured in the Semi-final of European competition. Which league did they play out of?

The Eredivisie doesn't provide enough TV revenue, and it doesn't provide enough competition.

You could say the same of the SPL but it didn't stop Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen from registering magnificent results during the week.

Even if we could afford them, how can we attract top coaches and top playeres to come and play against the likes of V.V.V. Heracles or Sparta? Where's the motivation going to come from? Top players and top coaches like to test themselves against the best.

As it has always been.

We need to take another look at the Phoenix or Atlantic League projects, or failing that - a Benelux league. Either way it has to be supra-national, and it has to be competitive.

This would wreck football in countries such as the Netherlands and Scotland.

Double

The Purple Cow schreef:"This would wreck football in countries such as the Netherlands and Scotland."

Football in Nederland is already dead, we are just raking over the ashes.

Oh, come on...

K.

"This would wreck football in countries such as the Netherlands and Scotland."

Football in Nederland is already dead, we are just raking over the ashes.

**

"Blaming the Dutch competition for Ajax' problems is pretty bloody pathetic."

No it isn't, your hysterical response is pathetic.

**

As you well know, AZ and PSV recently featured in the Semi-final of European competition. Which league did they play out of? "

Incidents. Look at the long-term trends, the European competitiveness of Dutch clubs is going steadily down hill.

**

"As it has always been."

That was before Bosman

**

"You could say the same of the SPL but it didn't stop Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen from registering magnificent results during the week. "

No you can't. Satelite TV revenues for the SPL are siginificantly higher than those of the Eredivisie

**