Ajaxtalk

Geplaatst: **di mei 10, 2005 12:25 pm**

jakobg schreef: I don't agree. I have said this a hundred times now: I think we would have been way better with Zlatan in the team.

I agree the team would have been better. but way better? I don't think so. The team was rudderless under Koeman. Zlatan himself has admitted in interviews that he felt he was stagnating at Ajax - was not improving as a player. Sure, he may have won a few games through his individual skills, and helped his team-mates by creating a bit of space. But I bet there still wouldn't have been a real overall team plan - unless it was 'give the ball to Zlatan'

jakobg schreef:
Frans schreef:And if we'd sold VDV for the 'better fee' you claim, and kept Zlatan, we probably wouldn't get as much for him this summer. (due to a combination of less time left on contract, the ineptitude of the board, and the fact that noone was going to look good at Ajax this year)
Can't agree here either. I'm sure we'd get much more money for Zlatan now than we will get for Van der Vaart. No doubt.

I meant we would get less money for Zlatan now than we did get

Geplaatst: **di mei 10, 2005 12:36 pm**

Frans schreef:
jakobg schreef: I don't agree. I have said this a hundred times now: I think we would have been way better with Zlatan in the team.
I agree the team would have been better. but way better? I don't think so.

The funny thing is: we don't know! Ha!

Seriously: Zlatan was absolutely fantastic last season (2003-2004), was close to becoming the team captain and he had also developed into a great goalscorer (13 goals in, I think, 17 appearances in the Eredivisie). The start of this season was actually quite good: the first half of the very first game (at Twente) was, quite ironically, possibly the best 'half' of football Ajax played until the recent AZ game. And the following home game (6-2 against NAC) was the only really outstanding result at home until the AZ game. Zlatan scored three goals in those two games. Three out of two before he left. It seemed like he was going to be superb this season.

So yes: I do believe that Ajax could indeed have made 'the next step' with Zlatan. His absence was a major and possibly crucial factor, especially in the Champions League.

Basically, I think (just like Jakob) that it started going wrong with Ajax because of Zlatan's departure. But then we went downhill so fast and fell so deeply that he would not have made the difference, had he been there. I mean: if we'd had Zlatan on the bench at Maccabi Tel-Aviv, there is no way he would have saved us over there. It was simply too bad for that. The question is, though: would Ajax have slid into such a deep crisis, had he been there from the start...?

Oh well, we don't know. I think it would have made an enormous difference, but again: we don't know.

Frans schreef:
jakobg schreef:Can't agree here either. I'm sure we'd get much more money for Zlatan now than we will get for Van der Vaart. No doubt.
I meant we would get less money for Zlatan now than we did get

I think it would not have made too much of a difference for Ajax over all (I mean: in total): if we'd sold Zlatan this summer instead of last summer, his fee would probably have been 12 instead of 16 million. But if we'd sold Van der Vaart last summer his fee may well have been 8 million instead of 4 million. In other words: I think we would have ended up with about 20 million for the two of them, no matter what (I think we should have demanded at least that fee for Zlatan alone, by the way...).

In other words: the money is not the issue here. The issue is: had we done it the other way round (selling Van der Vaart last summer and Zlatan this summer) we would had a similar amount of money, but a better season. How much better? We don't know. But better, for sure.

K.

Geplaatst: **di mei 10, 2005 1:22 pm**

Maybe Zlatan would have made the difference in a few games, but not enough to make up the difference between PSV and Ajax. Perhaps Ajax would have been a more deserving candidate for second place. But the underlying cracks in the team would have remained, and Koeman may well have stayed in place... until next year when, after having sold Zlatan in the summer, Ajax would have continued to founder.

So selling Zlatan later would only have delayed the inevitable, and I would rather Blind had these last few weeks to get his feet wet, with an eye towards making a better team next year, than have to start this process that much later.

Geplaatst: **di mei 10, 2005 1:36 pm**

aveslacker schreef:Maybe Zlatan would have made the difference in a few games, but not enough to make up the difference between PSV and Ajax. Perhaps Ajax would have been a more deserving candidate for second place. But the underlying cracks in the team would have remained, and Koeman may well have stayed in place... until next year when, after having sold Zlatan in the summer, Ajax would have continued to founder.

So selling Zlatan later would only have delayed the inevitable, and I would rather Blind had these last few weeks to get his feet wet, with an eye towards making a better team next year, than have to start this process that much later.

When I say that the team would have been way better with Zlatan than without him I don't just mean Zlatan would have won a few game for us by himself, but also that the whole team would have been better. I think what happened was that they lost a lot of confidence when their best player left, and felt like there was no one who they could rely on up front.

Even though Zlatan was never the clinical goal scorer he was exactly what Ajax lacked this season. A strong no. 9 who could hold on to the ball.

But selling Zlatan is of course not the only reason for this crappy season. No team should depend that much on one player. Hopefully Blind can get the progress back running and make the player's development go forward again, and not backwards as they've been going lately.

Geplaatst: **di mei 10, 2005 2:20 pm**

aveslacker schreef:Maybe Zlatan would have made the difference in a few games, but not enough to make up the difference between PSV and Ajax. Perhaps Ajax would have been a more deserving candidate for second place. But the underlying cracks in the team would have remained, and Koeman may well have stayed in place... until next year when, after having sold Zlatan in the summer, Ajax would have continued to founder.

So selling Zlatan later would only have delayed the inevitable, and I would rather Blind had these last few weeks to get his feet wet, with an eye towards making a better team next year, than have to start this process that much later.

At this moment in time I couldn't give a monkey's about a more deserving second spot etc.
What Zlatan staying would have meant to me is that for the 15 or so games that I will have travelled to this season, 14 of those would have stood a much better chance of being more entertaining. I go to be entertained and love or loathe him, the guy was pure entertainment, a talking subject before, during and after each game.
I realise this may be a short term view but Koeman would have gone in the summer anyway.

Geplaatst: **di mei 10, 2005 2:31 pm**

aveslacker schreef:I would rather Blind had these last few weeks to get his feet wet, with an eye towards making a better team next year, than have to start this process that much later.

This is very true, by the way.

Blind is doing great work so far and it seems like he took over just in the nick of time. That is: just in time to convince the likes of Pienaar and De Jong that they should stay.

Koeman caused some serious damage to this team and to the talent of some of the younger boys. Blind can sure as hell use some extra months to clean up the mess.

K.

Geplaatst: **di mei 10, 2005 3:02 pm**

Over Pasanens Head schreef:At this moment in time I couldn't give a monkey's about a more deserving second spot etc.
What Zlatan staying would have meant to me is that for the 15 or so games that I will have travelled to this season, 14 of those would have stood a much better chance of being more entertaining. I go to be entertained and love or loathe him, the guy was pure entertainment, a talking subject before, during and after each game.
I realise this may be a short term view but Koeman would have gone in the summer anyway.

You've got a point about entertainment (and I'm jealous that you can make it to that many games).

I don't share your optimism that Koeman would have gone in the summer, however. I suppose it is possible that he would have headed to greener pastures during the summer, but I don't see the board coming to their senses and booting him.

Geplaatst: **di mei 10, 2005 4:52 pm**

Rafael van der Vaart wil weg bij Ajax. De 22-jarige middenvelder heeft zijn club via zaakwaarnemer Sören Lerby laten weten dat hij Ajax deze zomer wil verruilen voor een andere werkgever. Afgelopen weekeinde bracht de international al een oriënterend bezoek aan Hamburger SV, de Duitse club waar ook Khalid Boulahrouz onder contract staat. HSV heeft serieuze interesse om Van der Vaart, die in Amsterdam nog een contract heeft tot 2006, in de zomer over te nemen van Ajax

Geplaatst: **di mei 10, 2005 4:56 pm**

aveslacker schreef:You've got a point about entertainment (and I'm jealous that you can make it to that many games).

Jealous that I visit Amsterdam so regularly - agreed

Jealous that I meet up with a great bunch of folks - agreed

Jealous that I have watched a load of crap this season - don't think you should be on that one.

Geplaatst: **di mei 10, 2005 4:58 pm**

philippe schreef:Post subject: van der Vaart to Hambourg : for how much ?

4 million... Check the previous page of this thread... It was discussed throughout the day.

K.

Geplaatst: **di mei 10, 2005 9:03 pm**

I've never been a big VdV fan...maybe for a short time last season but never as much as Ibrahimovic.

I'm sure we would have done better to sell VdV first instead (and at least Zlatan wouldn't spend half the time tripping over Sneijder's feet!!) but I'm equally sure that there's more too this season than just one good player.

I think the entertainment would certainly have improved though.

I'm sitting dreaming anyway watching Arsenal -v- Ajax from CL a couple of years back - Zlatan is discussed as the next best thing in the warm-up by commentaters Ally McCoist and Des Lynam....those were the days. Wearing my gold Sweden 100 years shirt too......... :D

Geplaatst: **wo mei 11, 2005 9:10 am**

There are probably only rumors, because Arie van Eijden has told, that there were no official offerts for van der Vaart...

Geplaatst: **wo mei 11, 2005 9:20 am**

Kowalczyk schreef:Franklin Sedoc, agent of Hatem Trabelsi, has confirmed that PSV have been in touch with him. The Tunisian can leave Ajax for a limited transfer fee and PSV are willing to pay him a very good salary.
K.

On yesterday's Het Parool Trabelsi has told, that informations about his transfer to PSV are rumors. He told, that he has no intentions to go to PSV and he won't play there at the future. He confirmed, that he wants to leave Ajax, but he wants to play in good club in better league. He dreams about Premiership, Serie A or Spanish League.

Geplaatst: **wo mei 11, 2005 11:24 am**

Kowalczyk schreef:
philippe schreef:Post subject: van der Vaart to Hambourg : for how much ?
4 million...
K.

that was a good laugh

Geplaatst: **wo mei 11, 2005 12:03 pm**

It's sad, but I think that's pretty much his value at this point...

K.

Geplaatst: **wo mei 11, 2005 12:19 pm**

But who told, that we must sell him this year? We may do this next season- maybe his price will be bigger than now. It is no sence to sell him for 4 mln euro... We might wait for a moment and sell him, when his form (and price) will improve.

Geplaatst: **wo mei 11, 2005 2:17 pm**

AsgAarD_xxx schreef:But who told, that we must sell him this year?

If he really wants to leave there's no point in having him in the team. And I'm not sure when his contract expires, but as we're getting closer to its end, we'll get even less money for him. A sale in the summer seems to be unexcapable (is that a word?). Get rid of him a.s.a.p is my opinion.

Geplaatst: **wo mei 11, 2005 3:28 pm**

AsgAarD_xxx schreef:But who told, that we must sell him this year? We may do this next season- maybe his price will be bigger than now.

Nope. His deal expires in 2006, so it's now or never. Next year he can walk out of the door for free. And clubs know that.

Also, Jakob is right: he's said that he wants to go. Well, if that's the case there's no point in keeping him. I wouldn't even want to, actually.

K.

Geplaatst: **wo mei 11, 2005 7:52 pm**

The Purple Cow schreef:Press reports this morning say that € 4 million is the asking price.
We would be lucky to get that, I'll bet we get more around the 3 million Euro mark for VdV.

Geplaatst: **wo mei 11, 2005 8:36 pm**

cdnajaxfan schreef:
The Purple Cow schreef:Press reports this morning say that € 4 million is the asking price.
We would be lucky to get that, I'll bet we get more around the 3 million Euro mark for VdV.

Can't we offer a Raffie + Sylvie package for 20 M€ ?? :X ;) ;) :D :D

Geplaatst: **wo mei 11, 2005 8:40 pm**

Wow, not such a bad idea :D

Geplaatst: **vr mei 13, 2005 12:51 pm**

Olympique Lyon wants to loan Daniel de Ridder. They wanted to buy him, but Ajax has told, that he is not for sale yet. So they have decided to loan de Ridder for following season.

Geplaatst: **vr mei 13, 2005 1:11 pm**

The Purple Cow schreef:Press reports this morning say that € 4 million is the asking price.
We would be lucky to get that, I'll bet we get more around the 3 million Euro mark for VdV.

And another good news- his price is higher every day, so maybe it will go to 6-7 mln euro (or more). Unfortunatelly, no other club gave us official offert for him (it will be much easier to raise van der Vaart's price...

Geplaatst: **vr mei 13, 2005 1:11 pm**

AsgAarD_xxx schreef:Olympique Lyon wants to loan Daniel de Ridder. They wanted to buy him, but Ajax has told, that he is not for sale yet. So they have decided to loan de Ridder for following season.

Well, if he can't play for the first team, OL is a good place for him to develop. I'd be surprised if he could crack the first team there, though.

Geplaatst: **vr mei 13, 2005 1:22 pm**

aveslacker schreef:
AsgAarD_xxx schreef:Olympique Lyon wants to loan Daniel de Ridder. They wanted to buy him, but Ajax has told, that he is not for sale yet. So they have decided to loan de Ridder for following season.
Well, if he can't play for the first team, OL is a good place for him to develop. I'd be surprised if he could crack the first team there, though.

Man I'd like to see him there !!!

At last a bit of interest for the French League...

Ajaxtalk

Players Leaving Ajax

van der Vaart to Hambourg : for how much ?

Van der Fart

Re: Van der Fart