Ajaxtalk

AjaxPDX schreef:Does anyone know of any links that show replays of the disallowed goals? I've watched the highlights, but they only contain Madrid's goals and not Ajax's disallowed goals, and I want to judge how bad those calls were.

Here you go...

http://ajax.netwerk.to/wedstrijden/news ... 436#i26664

K.

AjaxPDX schreef:I didn't get to see the match. Does anyone know of any links that show replays of the disallowed goals? I've watched the highlights, but they only contain Madrid's goals and not Ajax's disallowed goals, and I want to judge how bad those calls were.

Fox Soccer Channel will be showing a replay of the match at 3AM tomorrow morning and 2 PM in the afternoon so you can record it (EDIT added - Easter Time). I watched the match live on the Internet (small screen) and then the beginning of the match when FoxSC showed the delayed tape and it's pretty darn clear that neither "goal" was offside. I don't know if anyone has posted clips of the two plays yet. Clearly on the first Ajax goal the linesman was not even with the play and could not have possibly judged it properly and on the second, Sulejmani was partially hidden from his view by other players including an Ajax player who WAS NOT involved at all in the play and might have been offside (maybe Lodeiro, I would have to go back and check). It was just bad officiating and he should be banned from further UEFA matches plain and simple.

Thanks for posting it, but I couldn't get the video at that link to work. It could be restricted to viewers in the Netherlands. Anyone got another link?

Tom_ schreef:Thanks for posting it, but I couldn't get the video at that link to work. It could be restricted to viewers in the Netherlands. Anyone got another link?

Doesn't work here in the US either. Maybe UEFA has banned it!

Whats more interesting to note is what happened in Zagreb. How many times does the home team get a player sent off by a double yellow card in just 28 minutes of play ? That's just unreal. Lyon was not going to score the way they did against an 11 men Zagreb team but after the red card the flood gates where open. Add to that out two disallowed goals that would have actually tide the game up and it is a pretty ugly picture you come up with. I don't like conspiracy theories but this one smells pretty damn bad !

Anyone on the board from Zagreb? Look out for WAGs in brand new fur coats next week.

Uggh..this blows

There was a joke from some commentator that Leko asked the ref to sent him off so that he can start spending money faster that others.

After watching some goals from that 'game' I think that it was fixed.

The signs that the Lyon game was fixed are clear in my opinion.
But to fix a game like that at least three parties needed to be involved, namely Lyon (all the players), Zagreb (all the players) and UEFA.
Even though the refereeing in Amsterdam was below par, they didn't necessarily need to be involved because the chance that Real was going to win was rather high to begin with. But to be sure the referee and the two linesmen might have been bought.
Wouldn't all that be too much of a risk and very hard to organize? I find it very hard to believe that so many people can be involved in this and nobody's going to find out.

IMO the biggest football scandal since the notorious 78 WC semi final Argentina - Peru.

Both yesterday's games were clearly fixed.

I don't think UEFA will investigate (as Ajax should demand). They're rotten to the core. But given time we'll know and Lyon should be banned. Of course the easy way out for the UEFA will be to punish only Zagreb.

The case of the so-called referee Manuel De Sousa should be explained by a financial investigation.

Reading about things this morning and seeing the Lyon goals I do believe that game was fixed. Even had our 2 goals been given ,and they certainly were not off side ,would that have inspired Real to up their tempo and score more! We will never know.

All I do know is that it is difficult to win football games without a striker and our defence all season has not been good enough . I see Blind is not rated but had Toby been playing I doubt he would have prevented any of the goals. All last showed me is that Anita is not a left back and VdWiel although he had a good game going forward cannot defend.

As for Europa Cup if we get Man U or Man city at least we will make some money out of our gate money.

We need to regroup and concentrate on the league especially as Az have dropped points.

Well,

there seems to be an investigation after all of that Zagreb-Lyon affair.

We've managed to keep cleansheet 4 times of 6 games in CL while conceding a hell lot in Eredivisie.

paladinby schreef: We've managed to keep cleansheet 4 times of 6 games in CL while conceding a hell lot in Eredivisie.

...and been down to 10 men and defended rather well.

I doubt UEFA will do anything about these mother f***ers.

Couldn't we simply refuse to play the Europa League in sign of protest ?

And just focus on the Dutch league ?

philippe schreef:I doubt UEFA will do anything about these mother f***ers.

Couldn't we simply refuse to play the Europa League in sign of protest ?

And just focus on the Dutch league ?

I think the bigger scandal is the Portuguese match officials rubbing out two good goals to preserve their country's UEFA coefficient points! I feel the same way about the Europa League but I don't think they can do this without risking some type of penalty from M. Platini (who must have slept pretty well last night given the progress of both Lyon and Marseille). At least our local FIFA Confederation (CONCACAF) is corrupt in a very overt way!

philippe schreef:Both yesterday's games were clearly fixed.

I'm sorry. It soothes the passion to claim it, but... no.

There is no reason to believe that the Ajax game was fixed. The assistant referee simply made two terrible calls. The center referee, whom some of you included in your indictment, is utterly reliant on the asst referee for those calls, and otherwise had at worst an unremarkable match. You can theorize that the AR was paid off, but that's all it is... a theory. And IMO a flimsy one.

One can make a stronger assertion that the Lyon game was fixed, but I'd assert that the more likely scenario is that the Zagreb players couldn't give a fuck and simply let a motivated Lyon team walk all over them for the hell of it. The chances that they actually got paid, or placed huge bets and then colluded on the outcome, are remote. Possible, sure. But I doubt it.

This seems like a good time to quote my favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

About the Amsterdam game : "Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum".
I can believe in one refereing stupid mistake, not in two.

About the Zagreb game, just take a look at the videos of goal 3 and 5, for instance, and focus on the defenders. It's not only about motivation.

Does anyone have a link to video highlights from the Lyon game? Haven't seen them.

I'm sure it will comfort no one, nor should it, that UEFA has investigated and declared nothing amiss.

philippe schreef:I doubt UEFA will do anything about these mother f***ers.

Couldn't we simply refuse to play the Europa League in sign of protest ?

And just focus on the Dutch league ?

We can't refuse to play in Europa League as it will lead to a long term ban in all european competitions. Something like refusing to handshake with all UEFA representatives till the end of season will be nice. But we don't have any board to help us in this situation.

Those men who run Ajax now will simply swallow it as if it's ok. They care more about finances than sporting success.

UEFA will do nothing about it as it is completely corrupted and Platini is involved.

philippe schreef:I can believe in one refereing stupid mistake, not in two.

My capacity for believe in stupidity exceeds yours, then. I have no problem accepting that this asst. referee merely botched two (similarly clear but close) decisions. It happens.

He won't be formally reprimanded, but I'd be surprised if this did not diminish his chance of future assignment to top games.

ajaxusa schreef:

philippe schreef:I can believe in one refereing stupid mistake, not in two.

My capacity for believe in stupidity exceeds yours, then. I have no problem accepting that this asst. referee merely botched two (similarly clear but close) decisions. It happens.

He won't be formally reprimanded, but I'd be surprised if this did not diminish his chance of future assignment to top games.

I think we are all blowing off steam on this as we really wanted the club to do well and to see us go down to defeat this way leaves a sour taste in our mouths. I just watched the first half again on the Fox Soccer Channel replay and it's truly baffling how the linesman got both calls so utterly wrong. On the first he had an unobstructed view of the play the second was a little more complicated since Sulejmani was the second Ajax player away from his view on the line of play (I think Lodeiro was first) but neither were offside. We botched the high defensive line on both first half Madrid goals and in retrospect given our lineup we did a darn good job of playing even with them for the whole half and I think at times outplaying them. I watch Enoh who was assigned to man mark Kaka and kudos to him for essentially taking him out of the match.

All good things have to come to an end some time and I guess this is the way it happened with our CL campaign this season. Some times things "end not with a bang but with a whimper" (T.S. Eliot). I'm sufficiently through with my grieving and had my afternoon tea out of my Ajax mug confident that this team will live to fight battles on other days and other fields with red and white glory. On to Walwijk this weekend and let's take those three points and start a bold move to get the 31st league title.

(What he said.)

ajaxusa schreef:

philippe schreef:I can believe in one refereing stupid mistake, not in two.

My capacity for believe in stupidity exceeds yours, then. I have no problem accepting that this asst. referee merely botched two (similarly clear but close) decisions. It happens.

He won't be formally reprimanded, but I'd be surprised if this did not diminish his chance of future assignment to top games.

These guys are highly trained to recognize such situations. They've seen them a million times. They know exactly what is onside or offside. It's not rocket science. I don't really believe in errors there. Unless somehow the view is blocked, or the man's focus was distracted by recent events in the red light district.

You could say that he had his own interpretation of offside. In that case he made the same call twice, which would have been correct in his book. The absurdity was that Ajax triggered that exact same reaction twice, within a few minutes, and both times for goals. What are the odds? However, the point is that the linesman made it crystal clear, by repeating the decision, what his interpretation of offside was.

So we have two possibilities. The linesman was either corrupt or he has his own personal interpretation of offside. If the latter, that shouldn't be hard to establish by the UEFA (if they were remotely interested in the integrity of the game). Just take a look at the man's body of work. If he always interprets offside in this manner, Ajax was just unlucky. But if he changed his interpretation for this game...

Nice to hear some sense now that people have cooled down a bit. Why would UEFA want to keep Ajax out of the quarter finals? I think we were the victims of some extremely bad luck. Maybe Zagreb and Lyon had a gentlemen's agreement à la PSV and whoever they were playing for that last matchday 0–0 a few seasons ago, but I can't see anyone bothering to fix Ajax–Real. A draw would've been a less likely outcome than Real winning, anyway.

It would be naïve to think match fixing doesn't exist in football, and maybe the fix WAS in for the Lyon match. But even though I'm disappointed that we're out, we have no place in the modern Champions' League, which is all about money. UEFA rakes in the cash, whilst 'rich' clubs with outrageous levels of debt spend hundreds of millions on players so that they can make it into the last few rounds every year. Not for us!

Monkey Tonk schreef:
You could say that he had his own interpretation of offside. In that case he made the same call twice, which would have been correct in his book. The absurdity was that Ajax triggered that exact same reaction twice, within a few minutes, and both times for goals. What are the odds? However, the point is that the linesman made it crystal clear, by repeating the decision, what his interpretation of offside was.

So we have two possibilities. The linesman was either corrupt or he has his own personal interpretation of offside. If the latter, that shouldn't be hard to establish by the UEFA (if they were remotely interested in the integrity of the game). Just take a look at the man's body of work. If he always interprets offside in this manner, Ajax was just unlucky. But if he changed his interpretation for this game...

If he interprets the rule the way he did yesterday he should not be officiating at any level. You are right about UEFA dealing with this and they should. We've seen past Eredivisie matches where the match officials have been interviewed after games and stated when they may have missed a call. That is the only honorable thing to do but I'm too tired to troll the Internet to see if this linesman admitted that he missed two critical calls. I only note that when the Marca (Madrid newspaper) awards the linesman the worst of the match you really know something is afoot (see: http://www.marca.com/2011/12/07/futbol/ ... 93848.html for the still pictures). Just no excuse about "missing" or having an "own personal interpretation."

No argument from me that he was wrong twice. I was pointing out a (statistical) way to show that the error was honest or dishonest.

The whole offside rule is outdated anyway. If a striker wants to remain in the sixteen all game, no problem. With players closing down spaces faster than ever, getting rid of the offside rule could open the game up and make it much more attractive.