04 Mar 2007: Ajax - SC Heerenveen

[Kowalczyk]

HTC should not be fired, for the simple reason that it would make no sense. And I would still say that if the football and the results were worse than under Danny Blind (which, over all, they definitely aren't; let's make that clear).

I don't know why you keep mentionning Blind.
You are the one to do that and then you say this is stupid.

This is very childish of you.

You quote a sentence in which I say that I would always judge HTC separately, regardless of his results compared to Blind's. I'm basically explaining here that a comparison is irrelevant, and that I don't want to do that. And then you say that it's a comparison... Which it simply isn't.

"I don't want to compare HTC to Danny Blind."
"But now you're doing it, because you mention the two of them in one sentence!"

Come on... :nooo:

K.

[LucaS]

Maybe the time is right to stop thinking we are the best and to take the time to restructure, both the organisation and the team. I seriously doubt if van Geel and Ten Cate are the right persons for the job. Although I have to add, that I can't judge Van Geel's work in the organisation.

Why do you think Ten Cate is good enough? Is it just because he let twe former teams play attractive and had results with them? Because being responsible in the top is different than being headcoach of NAC or assistent at Barcelona. I don't know whether or not it's true, but VI says that there are players that are absolutely fed up with the way Ten Cate treats them. It's an explosive guy.

[Kowalczyk]

Although I have to add, that I can't judge Van Geel's work in the organisation.

I can, with all due respect, and I think Martin van Geel is the best thing that happened to this club in the past ten years. 100% convinced of that.

Why do you think Ten Cate is good enough?

I don't necessarily. I'm being pragmatic here. Once again: is there a better one out there? Is he available? Can we afford him? Can we sign the players he would want to sign? Can we keep the players he would want to keep? Would he improve the team in a way that HTC wouldn't next season?

I do not know the answers to these questions (the responsible ones will have to ask themselves these questions), but I do believe that these are the questions the analysis should be based on. It's not a matter of jurisdiction, based on a comparison to last season's results. There's more to it than that. That's all I'm saying.

I don't know whether or not it's true, but VI says that there are players that are absolutely fed up with the way Ten Cate treats them. It's an explosive guy.

Yes, I know these stories as well (and not from VI, but from sources 'close to the fire'). I can not really judge on the situation, though. Football players are generally self-centered and a bit hypocritical when it comes to their own positions, so in most cases unhappy players (the ones on the bench, the ones who get criticised) will moan about the head-coach, whereas happy ones won't.

Wesley Sneijder, for example, seems very happy with HTC. Same goes for Heitinga, Stam, Babel, De Mul and Gabri. They have no reasons to complain. Rosales, Rosenberg, Perez and quite possibly KJH will probably tell you different stories, or at least have their thoughts. This is universal and not necessarily a valid reason to doubt HTC's qualities as a people's manager (which doesn't mean that we should not doubt HTC; I just don't know enough about this specific point).

K.

[Philippe]

This is very childish of you.
K.

As usual, people who don't agree with you are "stupid" or "childish". You like to discuss but with those who share your opinion, which always is the club's official line.

Just let Blind alone, and comment on this season disaster.

Untill the club sacks HTC, and then you will speak the Truth and tell the lost sheep about how right the decision.

[LucaS]

One last word, and than I will stop with bringing the Ten Cate-Blind 'war' into the English zone ;) . I think it's better to spend a large sum of money on an absolute topcoach instead of spending all the money yet again on 7 new players. There is not a lot wrong with the players we have under contract.

And the name of this coach? I can't tell, I'm no expert on this area. But van Geel should be. That is why I blame him for Ten Cate. When Ten Cate was announced to be the new coach, I instantly wondered why he chose a coach who too had everything to prove as headcoach of a topclub. That wasn't a smart move!

[Frans]

One last word, and than I will stop with bringing the Ten Cate-Blind 'war' into the English zone ;) . I think it's better to spend a large sum of money on an absolute topcoach instead of spending all the money yet again on 7 new players. There is not a lot wrong with the players we have under contract.

And the name of this coach? I can't tell, I'm no expert on this area. But van Geel should be. That is why I blame him for Ten Cate. When Ten Cate was announced to be the new coach, I instantly wondered why he chose a coach who too had everything to prove as headcoach of a topclub. That wasn't a smart move!

What 'absolute topcoach' is going to want to come to Ajax? You clearly want someone who has proven themselves at a topclub. I'd venture to suggest if a manager has managed to do that, they'd be gainfully employed by the same or another topclub. Personally I think if a manager (or anyone in any field) has a proven track record they deserve a chance to step up the next level You can't judge someones abilities until they've had a chance to show what they're capable of.

Anyway, just for you, I've thought up the name of an unemployed 'absolute topcoach', who Ajax can waste a lot of money on...



















Sven Goran Erikson :pukey:

[LucaS]

I don't know who it should be Frans, it's not my job to find a good headcoach for our club. What I do know is that all the coaches since van Gaal (which is 10 years ago) have been sacked.

[Frans]

I don't know who it should be Frans, it's not my job to find a good headcoach for our club. What I do know is that all the coaches since van Gaal (which is 10 years ago) have been sacked.

I'd suggest that most coaches end up being sacked, no matter what club they are at. It's just the nature of the beast.

Now unless Van Geel produced a 'name' coach you'd be sceptical about whoever he bought in:

I instantly wondered why he chose a coach who too had everything to prove as headcoach of a topclub. That wasn't a smart move!

[LucaS]

Maybe. But a coach which had really produced better results and better football couldn't be critised as much as Ten Cate. I may be hard to convince by Ten Cate, but so far he hasn't produced anything to convince anybody.

[666]

Most coaches before van Gaal were sacked as well. Or they left "voluntarily" after a string of lousy games and bad results.

Henk ten Cate: who nows?
Danny Blind: sacked
Ronald Koeman: sacked himself
Co Adriaanse: sacked
Jan Wouters: sacked
Morten Olsen: sacked
__________________________________________

Louis van Gaal: not sacked
__________________________________________
Beenhakker: ran off to Madrid
Kurt Linder: sacked after only 5 (!) games
Johan Cruijff: sacked himself
Aad de Mos: sacked
Kurt Linder: surprise, surprise: not sacked
Leo Beenhakker: sacked
Cor Brom: sacked
Tomaslav Ivic: not sacked, although he should have been
Rinus Michels: not sacked
Hans Kraay: sacked himself
George Knobel: sacked
Stéfan Kovács: not sacked
Rinus Michels: not sacked
Vic Buckingham: sacked himself

Take-home message: if you don't win the champions league, you're out. We've been running Ajax like that for 40 years, not just the last 10.

[LucaS]

Since Ten Cate is one of the weaker coaches in this row he should be sacked? Is that it? ;)

[Philippe]

let's try Paul Le Guen, once his psg will be relegated to second division. ;)

[ZoefdeHaas]

A frenchman head of Ajax? no.

Cmon you guys its the first damn season ffs, the results arent too bad, and the squad has potential. You couldn'thave expected much. AZ were more prepared, and PSV are basically the same team for the past few years.

HTC is a good coach (you can tell simply the way Barca is playin now) and we should all have faith in him and not simply fire him.

[Kowalczyk]

Match report of the Ajax vs Heerenveen game is now (finally) up...

http://www.ajax-usa.com/matches/m06-07/ ... n-0-1.html

"The club's official line" as usual... X'D

K.

[Kowalczyk]

You like to discuss but with those who share your opinion, which always is the club's official line.

I don't think you'll find many people on your side on this one...

I don't feel like defending myself against this one, though - and I won't.

Just let Blind alone, and comment on this season disaster.

You accused me of the exact opposite I was saying ('do not compare Blind and HTC')... Perhaps you miss-read my post.

Untill the club sacks HTC, and then you will speak the Truth and tell the lost sheep about how right the decision.

Oh come on... Did I ever say that when Morten Olsen was sacked? Or Co Adriaanse?

K.

[Philippe]

HTC is a good coach (...) and we should all have faith in him

:eusa_pray: blind faith in HTC :drecul2:

(on the Dutch forum "Henk ten Cate vs. Danny Blind: de harde cijfers" gets 17 033 views and 1 505 replies)

[Over Pasanens Head]

What really gets to me about all of this is that we, as in Ajax fans, seem to have this notion that because we are Ajax we should be great and win trophy after trophy, playing fantastic footie at every moment.

Let me let you into a secret - life, especially football, just isn't like that. Great football teams come and go over the years and its success or otherwise all isn't down to the coach.

What makes a football team great is having at a particular moment in time all the required indegredients present at that time. Ajax have had that in the past and will more than likely have it again in the future - when in the future is the big question.

In my opinion Ajax has a reasonable coach who will get better, a very good TD and a fantastic infrastructure. The missing ingredient at the moment is the players and maybe we all have to exercise a bit of patience and trust that the management team has the necessary skills to deliver them in the future. I have little idea if we have a great bunch of players coming through or not. Maybe SPL, who seems to follow their progress a lot more closely than I do, can update us on this.

So in summing up - chill out lads and enjoy the ride rembering along the way that it is the bad times that make the good times seem really good.

[GangstaRiB]

What really gets to me about all of this is that we, as in Ajax fans, seem to have this notion that because we are Ajax we should be great and win trophy after trophy, playing fantastic footie at every moment.

Let me let you into a secret - life, especially football, just isn't like that. Great football teams come and go over the years and its success or otherwise all isn't down to the coach.

What makes a football team great is having at a particular moment in time all the required indegredients present at that time. Ajax have had that in the past and will more than likely have it again in the future - when in the future is the big question.

In my opinion Ajax has a reasonable coach who will get better, a very good TD and a fantastic infrastructure. The missing ingredient at the moment is the players and maybe we all have to exercise a bit of patience and trust that the management team has the necessary skills to deliver them in the future. I have little idea if we have a great bunch of players coming through or not. Maybe SPL, who seems to follow their progress a lot more closely than I do, can update us on this.

So in summing up - chill out lads and enjoy the ride rembering along the way that it is the bad times that make the good times seem really good.

You're absolutely right, but the bad times, don't have to be this bad. Performing in Europe is very hard for the Dutch clubs, but we aren't even competing in our own Eredivisie! This is the 3rd year in a row that we play a minor role in the Eredivisie. That is just unacceptable!

[Philippe]

Performing in Europe is very hard for the Dutch clubs, but we aren't even competing in our own Eredivisie!

I can't see why we shouldn't do at least as well as psv. :stern:

[Over Pasanens Head]

You're absolutely right, but the bad times, don't have to be this bad. Performing in Europe is very hard for the Dutch clubs, but we aren't even competing in our own Eredivisie! This is the 3rd year in a row that we play a minor role in the Eredivisie. That is just unacceptable!

I understand your feelings GangstaRiB. My only comment would be to say that this is what following Ajax has been like since I started all those years ago in the mid 60's. Ajax are really very much a bi-polar team - they are either great or they are absolute crap - the space in between these poles just don't seem to fit into Ajax's universe.
I am not stating that I believe that this should therefore be accepted, but just saying that this just appears to be another reincarnation of Ajax.

[GangstaRiB]

Performing in Europe is very hard for the Dutch clubs, but we aren't even competing in our own Eredivisie!

I can't see why we shouldn't do at least as well as psv. :stern:

True, but in my opinion that's not the major concern at the moment.

The new play-off rules at the end of the season, are covering up the real issues. Last year, Ajax ended 5th in the Eredivisie. But the play-offs covered Blind's ass, because we won the play-offs he was a kind of hero to the Ajaxfans. But if there weren't play-offs, Blind would be disgusted at the Arena. Ending 5th is just unacceptable for a club like Ajax and this is the 2nd season in a row if this trend continues. :sad:

[LucaS]

There is a big difference between today and the historie off the club OPH. In the past absolute crap periodes as you call them, didn't last 10 years. And even though you call them crap, I often enjoyed our team in that periods. The football was always fun to watch and a lot of games Ajax lost, were against the play on the pitch. Often one or two lousy counters did the trick. Nowadays it's the other way around. The games we loose are absolute justified losses and every now and then we win a game we shouldn't have won. :sad:

[SPL]

OPH asked if I knew about players coming through. Just because I take a note of who plays in our reserves and A1 team means sweet FA!! You probably know more about Anita and Sarpong, both rated highly since the 2005 U 17 World Cup than me. Trying to decide who is going to make it at 17/18 must be difficult as every year the club releases many from the A1/A2 squads and reserves.
In the last 5 years the only player in this bracket that we have released who would appear to be a mistake is Evander Sno .He left the A1 set up 2 years ago went straight in to NAC team last season and this year is playing with Celtic and now in the Dutch squad.