28 Aug 2005: Ajax - Feyenoord

[bluedaddy19]

If I could whish for a Swedish winger to come to Ajax it would be Christian Wilhelmsson, currently in Anderlecht. There's a guy with speed, ability to beat his opponent and to cross - but he carries a prize tag as well.

My two cents :xyxthumbs:

i was just about to say the same thing, he would cost about 4.5M (give or take)

[Venezuelan Ajacied]

the wingers problems becomes deeper than the fact that there very few good wingers, the problems stems from the 4-3-3 formation. Its a formation that in current football is almost obsolete except in the netherlands. Players of other countrys are developed in other positions and other tactics than those that Ajax use. Even Wilhemsson for example plays as a left-wide midfielder not a natural winger persé ( at least for the swedish national team).Still i would be delighted to see him at ajax, then again lets stop dreaming.

[666]

Jingle bells, jingle bells f-word naar de hel

Why would I let those %0#&@*fuc&e*$ in?

[jakobg]

If I could whish for a Swedish winger to come to Ajax it would be Christian Wilhelmsson, currently in Anderlecht. There's a guy with speed, ability to beat his opponent and to cross - but he carries a prize tag as well.

I'd choose Wilhelmsson over Hysén to Ajax any day as well, but as you say, his price tag will be a big one. According to Swedish press Anderlecht rejected an offer from Fiorentina a few days ago and if I remember correctly it was around 5-6 million. And I can't see a Swedish NT regular with his skills coming to the Eredivisie either.

I'm not sure I agree about your thoughts about Hysén though. He is a very fast winger already used to the 4-3-3 system from Djurgården and I'm sure he'll move abroad soon. And with that comes further development. I think he might well be useful in the Ajax squad.

We're moving away from the topic though, and we all know our friend, the moderator, isn't too fond of that. ;)

[bluedaddy19]

I'd choose Wilhelmsson over Hysén to Ajax any day as well, but as you say, his price tag will be a big one. According to Swedish press Anderlecht rejected an offer from Fiorentina a few days ago and if I remember correctly it was around 5-6 million.

it was closer to 3, a real low bid... anderlecht laughed

[jakobg]

it was closer to 3, a real low bid... anderlecht laughed

Swedish newspaper Expressen today reports that te bid was 42 million Swedish crones, that is about 4.5 million euros. That's not the biggest 'problem' though, Wilhelmsson wants to go to one of the big leagues. That's the main reason I can't see him becoming an Ajacied any time soon.

[Philippe]

Wilhelmsson wants to go to one of the big leagues. That's the main reason I can't see him becoming an Ajacied any time soon.

we don't need this kind of guys, we need players who respect and want to be with Ajax, and not those who see this as a stepping stone

[jakobg]

we don't need this kind of guys, we need players who respect and want to be with Ajax, and not those who see this as a stepping stone

Well, I don't know. Let's see the facts here, Ajax is a stepping stone - and an excellent one - for young talents in Europe. That's the way it is. The great players want to play in the great leagues, and many see Ajax as a good chance to develop and later be bought by on of the 'big ones'. I don't think they don't respect the blub, as you say, but more that they want to forfill their dream of playing football on the highest level and making the big money.

That's not only bad I think. We can enjoy the big players when they are young, but we'll never stand a chance of keeping them. With the money we get we buy new young talents again, and that's how it keeps rolling.

[666]

Trabelsi, Zlatan, Chivu, Kanu, Finidi, even Saint Jari... they all used Ajax as a stepping stone but I'm glad we bought them anyway.

[Philippe]

Because there is more money in some other leagues than the Dutch one, it has more or less always been the case.
Since the late 90' there is a vicious "nursery of Europe complex" that makes the Ajax management satisfied with just : buying young players, getting them play a few European games, and then selling them. This is the easy way. Ajax are making money, and the shareholders are satisfied.
So, and that's what makes this policy totally unacceptable, there is no need for a real international ambition.
For instance, when he came to Ajax, Escudé was told by Koeman stories of how great his Barcelona years were. That's incredible. At least we will not have this non sense with Blind.
We need Ajax to have the ambition to win international trophies again. We need players who are proud of being there and believe in Ajax, and not just the 2-3 years there then I'm off to ???
Last but not least, it is a mistake to underestimate the Dutch league (see psv and AZ last season, etc..).

[carcajou]

For instance, when he came to Ajax, Escudé was told by Koeman stories of how great his Barcelona years were. That's incredible. At least we will not have this non sense with Blind.

Who cares ?

He's not good enough to go there anyway.

[Philippe]

don't you think that when you get a young player coming from nowhere it would wiser to impress him with Ajax moments of glory rather than with Barcelona ? ; that was just an example ; and since last Sunday I wonder if he is good enough for Ajax

[aveslacker]

Because there is more money in some other leagues than the Dutch one, it has more or less always been the case.
Since the late 90' there is a vicious "nursery of Europe complex" that makes the Ajax management satisfied with just : buying young players, getting them play a few European games, and then selling them. This is the easy way. Ajax are making money, and the shareholders are satisfied.
So, and that's what makes this policy totally unacceptable, there is no need for a real international ambition.
For instance, when he came to Ajax, Escudé was told by Koeman stories of how great his Barcelona years were. That's incredible. At least we will not have this non sense with Blind.
We need Ajax to have the ambition to win international trophies again. We need players who are proud of being there and believe in Ajax, and not just the 2-3 years there then I'm off to ???
Last but not least, it is a mistake to underestimate the Dutch league (see psv and AZ last season, etc..).

I generally agree, although realistically speaking, many players want to move on from Ajax, as they would from any other club. I don't think it is wrong for a player to play a few years at Ajax and then want to move on because he wants a change. What I don't want to see is a player who comes to Ajax to use it exclusively to showcase his talents so that he can get sold off when a "big" club goes after him.

In the latter situation, the player is using Ajax as a stepping-stone, an audition. I'd rather have a player who plays his ass off while he is with Ajax, and then decides that he wants to play somewhere else because that's how the business of soccer is.

And I agree - Ajax should always consider itself a "destination" club, not a springboard for players to jump into Spain or Italy, even if some of the players do end up there. Does this make sense?

And, most importantly, Ajax should not look to buy players, it should first look to produce them. Ajax isn't like any other club that buys players. Ajax makes players, and that's the way it should be. I don't have any problems with clubs that make their team by buying and selling players. But Ajax doesn't need to (and shouldn't) do that.

Ajax has the most heralded youth academy in the world. It should be our first line of production - the club should look to buy players to complement the players that have come up through the ranks.

Anyway, I'm done ranting. Someone else can have the soapbox.:xyxthumbs:

[carcajou]

Ajax has the most heralded youth academy in the world. It should be our first line of production - the club should look to buy players to complement the players that have come up through the ranks.

Except that sometimes (and this had been the case recently) the players produced are nothing special, so you've got to look out of the box.

[Philippe]

Except that sometimes (and this had been the case recently) the players produced are nothing special, so you've got to look out of the box.

I am not so sure about that ....van der Vaart, Sneijder, Babel, De Jong, Stekelenburg, Heitinga, De Ridder, Maduro and of course Anastasiou.

[DanK]

Except that sometimes (and this had been the case recently) the players produced are nothing special, so you've got to look out of the box.

I am not so sure about that ....van der Vaart, Sneijder, Babel, De Jong, Stekelenburg, Heitinga, De Ridder, Maduro and of course Anastasiou.

Actually, I can see where Carcajou is coming from with this...
vdv - some moments of brilliance, yet to prove himself to be an international talent...same for sneijder, babel (to his defense he hasn't been around long enough), Heitinga = maybe the most overated of the bunch.

When you compare this to the young talents in the past, davids, kluivert, overmars, de boers etc. These guys WERE something special, even before they moved on.

[Kowalczyk]

When you compare this to the young talents in the past, davids, kluivert, overmars, de boers etc. These guys WERE something special, even before they moved on.

Especially before the moved on, I would say...

That's the ironic thing: after Ajax they moved on to bigger leagues where they could make bigger cash, but in almost every case (Seedorf being the Grande Exception) they never did as well in UEFA competition as they did with Ajax.

The De Boers, Litmanen, Reiziger, Kluivert, Bogarde, Van der Sar, Finidi, Kanu, Overmars and even Davids: playing two Champions League finals and winning the World Cup plus three domestic championships in a row... They had their finest hour at Ajax. Their achievements with Barcelona, AC Milan, Juventus, Chelsea and Liverpool did not even come close.

You could say that Davids and Seedorf became better players after they left Ajax. But the rest? No way. Ajax was the highlight for them, in every thinkable except their salary.

K.

[aveslacker]

Generally yes, although Van der Sar and Overmars both played (and in the case of VdS, continue to play) well after leaving Ajax. But generally, you're right.

But I do think the potential is there for some of the current lads (Babel, Maduro, Sneijder) to come close to that crop. Or maybe I'm just being naive. :dance3:

(That emoticon doesn't really have anything to do with anything in particular. I just thought it was funny to see Spiderman dancing.)

[ZoefdeHaas]

You can't compare the talent from our current generation to the previous one. Ofcourse the De Boer generation was really good (Overmars being my altime fav. and still) but remember, they played at a different time, when, unfortunate for now, business didnt effect football as much as today. VdV, Sneijder, and even Heitinga are all talented players, they just need to think about THEIR time and not the PREVIOUS time. Comparing like this is very unsettling and frustrating, especially at a lcub like Ajax.

[The Purple Cow]

Y'see you won't attract top-class players to Ajax as long as Ajax plays in the Dutch league. It's just not competitive enough.

In N.L. there are only three teams who currently have a realistic chance of winning the league, (or four if you include Ajax, which is a bit of a stretch.)


Whereas in the super-competitive English premier League, you've got Chelsea who could win it, you've got Arsenal have a real chance, and then you've got.....errrm,...you've got....

Uh, let's see ...you've got...


.....erm....

...oh!...

[Philippe]

;) just the same in Spain, Italy and England, where only 4 teams can win the league ....

[ZoefdeHaas]

However unlike Holland, many teams in those leagues have the budget to get good players, making it competative.

[AjaxThailand]

In regards to the platers that have come from the youth program over the last few years, I would say that VDV was the most promising talent and I am still sad that he left. I think it was better for him though as it wasnt working out anymore.

In regards to other players mentioned in previous posts:

Sneider - Could potentially be a great player. Might be better of on different possition. However his attitude has been poor and I hope that it has improved. Problem is that you cant rely on him as his performance is like a jojo.

Maduro: The kid has only been playing regular football in the first team for a relatively short period. Sure he is a talent but we shouldnt praise him too much as he hasnt proven himself yet over a whole season. I have my doubts over his speed which could proof to be an issue. I just think its to early to make a good evaluation of him.

De Jong - Another good talent, is becoming a very usefull player but like Sneider he has the problem that his performance is like a jojo. I do feel that he will in the end become a good player and one of Oranje's starting 11

Stekelenburg - I dont think he is goalkeeper that we need. Gets injured a lot and his game is often very insecure

Heitinga - His progress has stopped and if he remains at this level then i dont see him getting a regular starting 11 position unless some players leave. I think he is awfull as defensive midfielder. I hope though that his progress picks up and I could see him as one of our central defenders.

Babel - He is a big talent. (although, we all said that about Brian Roy as well and what happened to him) I think he has been hyped up too much. Still has to improve his game in various areas and i think Kluivert was farther ahead with his game at that age. I do really hope that he will become the 25 goal a year striker that we so urgently need. But its too soon to expect that from him

De Ridder - Not too crazy about him. Nice kid but dont think of him as some big talent.

And below will follow some names of other ajax talents of the last 10 years or so. People were talking about them in the same possitive way people now talk about Maduro, de Ridder and de VI and other publications were sure that they were the next superstars or regulars.

De Gun
Reuser
Knopper
Wooter
Musampa
Hose
Bobson
Pius Ikedia
Hersi
Pique

[Kowalczyk]

To put it quite bluntly: I think Maduro, De Jong and Babel have what it takes to be top class (potentially).

Sneijder, Heitinga, De Ridder, Stekelenburg and even Pienaar don't.

They are all gifted, quality football players, but if you want to be top drawer you need to be a killer - and you can tell the difference between the killers and the 'non-killers' at a very early age. If the coach has to 'protect' a player with the 'age excuse' for three years ("he's still young"), you know more than enough already. Basket case. Top drawer players from the youth system do the business from the start. Purchases are a different story: sometimes they need some time to get used to a new environment and a new approach to football.

Zlatan was a very typical example of a killer: because of his behaviour it seemed like he had a poor attitude, but he was a 100% 'winner'. He was a f*cking gangster, not afraid of any person in the world, and he knew exactly what he was doing. Sometimes he would fail completely against RBC or Groningen, but whe the business really needed to be done he simply decided to be fantastic that day. He could be annoyingly indifferent in small games, but when he knew the whole world was watching he was (sometimes almost literally...) willing to murder for a win.

Johnny Heitinga, for example, is the exact opposite: sometimes he's fantastic in a league game against Willem II, but at the end of the day he will make a terrible and probably fatal mistake in a big game. Sometimes it's not even a real mistake. Sometimes it's just a matter of giving your opponent a little push, beating him in the air or mow him down when it needs to be done. On the moments that really matter, players from the Heitinga category just can't crack it, plain simple.

And we're talking about two players of essentially the same age and experience here (Zlatan and Heitinga, that is).

I think Maduro has the maturity and the focus. I think Babel has the physical power, the 'explosiveness' and the ability to really take a defender by surprise and score a goal out of nowhere. I think De Jong has the power and the ability to run for 90 minutes. These folks still have to prove themselves, of course (and De Jong must hurry up a little!), but they are potentially top drawer.

Heitinga is a nice kid, but he's not merciless (which you should be, as a central defender). Sneijder is a classy player, but he overrates himself, refuses to defend and - most importantly - he starts whining when he's on the bench, which totally shows that he's spoiled little baby and not a warrior who will eat his opponent alive when ordered to do so. Stekelenburg is too nervous (not in a 'lack of experience' kind of way, but in a chronic, more deeply rooted kind of way). Pienaar, finally, is a fantastic little footballer with a perfect attitude, but a 'number 10' that scores 4 goals a year will never be top drawer. A 'number 10' must score 10 to 15 goals a year and have two absolutely brutal shots on goal every game, at the very least.

All truly great players have one characteristic in common: they don't give a shit and they essentially play for themselves.

Being world class is 50% talent and 50% mindset. Hatem Trabelsi and Zdenek Grygera are the two best players we have, the only reason for that being that they would simply do the business at any club, in any league -- and play their best games at the most important moments. That to me is the definition of 'quality' and with that definition in mind the current Ajax squad does not score impressively high marks in my book. None of the Dutchies even come remotely near Trabelsi and Grygera when it comes to 'killer attitude', and in only two cases (Maduro and Babel) time might prove that that's an age thing.

K.

[343]

Johnny Heitinga, for example, is the exact opposite: sometimes he's fantastic in a league game against Willem II, but at the end of the day he will make a terrible and probably fatal mistake in a big game.

Have you seen De Jong play lately?! :nooo:
Making blunders (recently against Brondby. Talking about a fatal mistake in a big game) and his defending skills are very poor.