30 Dec 2006: NEC - Ajax
Moderators: ajaxusa, Kowalczyk, mods
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Venezuelan Ajacied
- Berichten: 1379
- Lid geworden op: vr feb 04, 2005 12:54 am
- Locatie: Melbourne,Florida.
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Venezuelan Ajacied
- Berichten: 1379
- Lid geworden op: vr feb 04, 2005 12:54 am
- Locatie: Melbourne,Florida.
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Van basten
- Berichten: 1769
- Lid geworden op: zo dec 17, 2006 8:24 am
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Kowalczyk
- Moderator English Section
- Berichten: 13845
- Lid geworden op: vr sep 19, 2003 12:54 pm
- Locatie: AMSTERDAM
- Contacteer:
No offence, and I'm definitely not trying to make this look like a good result (cuz it ain't), but I'm curious about a few things...Van basten schreef:we are so weak..so fucking weak.. I don't have any fucking iliusions about wining something this season. we suck totaly
Such as: did you actually watch today's game? Do you watch enough home games of NEC to have an idea of how good (or bad) they are at home?
Or are you just shouting things based on the result?
Don't get me wrong: today was crap, but that's not my point.
K.
Still alive...
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Van basten
- Berichten: 1769
- Lid geworden op: zo dec 17, 2006 8:24 am
actualy i watched just the second half of the game. the answer to the second question is NO. 3rd question - i react on how we play all season and each gameKowalczyk schreef:No offence, and I'm definitely not trying to make this look like a good result (cuz it ain't), but I'm curious about a few things...Van basten schreef:we are so weak..so fucking weak.. I don't have any fucking iliusions about wining something this season. we suck totaly
Such as: did you actually watch today's game? Do you watch enough home games of NEC to have an idea of how good (or bad) they are at home?
Or are you just shouting things based on the result?
Don't get me wrong: today was crap, but that's not my point.
K.
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SE6Ajacied
- Berichten: 2437
- Lid geworden op: wo mar 23, 2005 1:14 pm
- Locatie: Still quite close to London SE6
Just seen the whole game "live" on Setanta. In truth I only saw after from after we'd gone 1-0 up due to one too many Guiness's (the Dublin hangover).
Obvious statement really but as usual we looked impressive going forward but (as usual lately) a total shambles at the back, especially from set pieces.
I don't know if SAtam is fully over the flue but I though he had a poor game today. He still looked good going forward and you could see him leading as captain but he lost out a few times - something I've not got used too.
Anyway, 2-2 was a disapointing result but bearing in mind our shambles at the back I'm still quite relieved with a point.
After runing my Christmas Ajax haven't quite managed to wreck my New Year as well.
Happy New Year Everyone :xyxthumbs:
Obvious statement really but as usual we looked impressive going forward but (as usual lately) a total shambles at the back, especially from set pieces.
I don't know if SAtam is fully over the flue but I though he had a poor game today. He still looked good going forward and you could see him leading as captain but he lost out a few times - something I've not got used too.
Anyway, 2-2 was a disapointing result but bearing in mind our shambles at the back I'm still quite relieved with a point.
After runing my Christmas Ajax haven't quite managed to wreck my New Year as well.
Happy New Year Everyone :xyxthumbs:
Forza Haarlem. HFC Gone but not forgotten!
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GangstaRiB
- Berichten: 17870
- Lid geworden op: zo mar 13, 2005 10:44 pm
- Locatie: Purmerend
ajax ruined another eve. after christmas now is turn of the new year's eve.
how long shoud we wait till we build a good team...and this season started with such a hopes. just like the last, and the year before. i thought ten cate was the exact man for the job,but i was wrong,just like all ajax-fans. now i'll wait the next season, but i'm affraid,that after 1 year on this very same day i will write the same words and the f*cking company-team will be champion again. the future is dark. ajax have a chronocal problem in its philosophy. we shoud play not so academic ,but more prakticall footbal. the academic, beautyfull football is for inteligent players such like Cruyff, Neeskens...and we dont have sucha now. we have "stars" like rosenberg, de mul, krohn-dehli and roger. like i said, the future is dark and i dont see any hope...
happy new year by the way :yes: , the life is not only football after all...
how long shoud we wait till we build a good team...and this season started with such a hopes. just like the last, and the year before. i thought ten cate was the exact man for the job,but i was wrong,just like all ajax-fans. now i'll wait the next season, but i'm affraid,that after 1 year on this very same day i will write the same words and the f*cking company-team will be champion again. the future is dark. ajax have a chronocal problem in its philosophy. we shoud play not so academic ,but more prakticall footbal. the academic, beautyfull football is for inteligent players such like Cruyff, Neeskens...and we dont have sucha now. we have "stars" like rosenberg, de mul, krohn-dehli and roger. like i said, the future is dark and i dont see any hope...
happy new year by the way :yes: , the life is not only football after all...
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Kowalczyk
- Moderator English Section
- Berichten: 13845
- Lid geworden op: vr sep 19, 2003 12:54 pm
- Locatie: AMSTERDAM
- Contacteer:
Jesus Christ... Gimme a break.acab schreef:the future is dark and i dont see any hope...
Cheer up, mate. Our last great run in the Champions League was in 2003 and our last Dutch championship in 2004 and our last Dutch Cup in 2006... And this season we're still in Europe.
We must improve and we must improve big time, but it's not like the club is dead or something... Come on.
K.
Still alive...
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Monkey Tonk
- Berichten: 9667
- Lid geworden op: vr sep 19, 2003 6:54 pm
- Locatie: route 66
I'm not so sure. For the first time in 35+years of Ajax I'm getting the feeling that the magic is gone, and won't return anytime soon.
We want to play like it's 1995, and somehow expect opponents to be surprised. Not that they would have to be overly prepared, because we don't have the players to execute that style effectively in the first place.
In that sense, the joke's on us.
If you look at the two super chapters in club history, you'll notice that each had been a work in progress for at least five years (probably closer to ten) before the peak. Both of these periods had a strong Cruijff imprint; first as player, later as coach. As coach, Cruijff would lay the foundation for the Ajax youth system, in which players would be taught the Ajax system from an early age on. And both periods began with a superstar striker in the team and a former Ajax striker as coach (Michels/Cruijff and Cruijff/van Basten). That's your basic recipe, if you want to call it that. Even an Ajax striker from the second team could pick up the coaching; Louis van Gaal...
Since 95 we've made the fundamental mistake of looking over our shoulder, trying to copy the past. This is in sharp contrast with the previous success periods, which were born from very progressive ideas and included some pretty drastic experimentation ('flying' goalie/vliegende keep!).
Ajax these days is very neatly organized, from top to bottom. Managers everywhere. But you can't have art without artists. Of course, things become infinitely more difficult when the sparse top talent wants to leave after one or two years in Ajax 1. At that point a club that depends on its youth system is basically fighting a losing battle. If van Basten had left in 1984 or '85, if Cruijff had left in 1967, there would never have been an 'Ajax'.
Football all across the world has become a business. It is run by businessmen. Chelski is a prime example. The competitions with the big money attract the best players, and until UEFA/FIFA steps in the rich will get richer and the poor poorer. Simple economics. The only way Ajax could ever compete in this financial circus is by going back to its roots of progressive ideas. That is what makes us different from all other clubs. Forward looking, innovative ideas. Not trying to imitate the past.
We want to play like it's 1995, and somehow expect opponents to be surprised. Not that they would have to be overly prepared, because we don't have the players to execute that style effectively in the first place.
In that sense, the joke's on us.
If you look at the two super chapters in club history, you'll notice that each had been a work in progress for at least five years (probably closer to ten) before the peak. Both of these periods had a strong Cruijff imprint; first as player, later as coach. As coach, Cruijff would lay the foundation for the Ajax youth system, in which players would be taught the Ajax system from an early age on. And both periods began with a superstar striker in the team and a former Ajax striker as coach (Michels/Cruijff and Cruijff/van Basten). That's your basic recipe, if you want to call it that. Even an Ajax striker from the second team could pick up the coaching; Louis van Gaal...
Since 95 we've made the fundamental mistake of looking over our shoulder, trying to copy the past. This is in sharp contrast with the previous success periods, which were born from very progressive ideas and included some pretty drastic experimentation ('flying' goalie/vliegende keep!).
Ajax these days is very neatly organized, from top to bottom. Managers everywhere. But you can't have art without artists. Of course, things become infinitely more difficult when the sparse top talent wants to leave after one or two years in Ajax 1. At that point a club that depends on its youth system is basically fighting a losing battle. If van Basten had left in 1984 or '85, if Cruijff had left in 1967, there would never have been an 'Ajax'.
Football all across the world has become a business. It is run by businessmen. Chelski is a prime example. The competitions with the big money attract the best players, and until UEFA/FIFA steps in the rich will get richer and the poor poorer. Simple economics. The only way Ajax could ever compete in this financial circus is by going back to its roots of progressive ideas. That is what makes us different from all other clubs. Forward looking, innovative ideas. Not trying to imitate the past.
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ajaxillinois
- Berichten: 27
- Lid geworden op: zo dec 31, 2006 7:33 am
- Locatie: Illinois, USA
Long time Ajax fan, first time poster so bear with me...
So it is up to Ajax to re-invent what "Ajax football" is. Within the Eredivisie I think there is a formula for success that is there, considering that all teams in the league are basically "sell" teams and are on a level playing field when it comes to competition amongst each other. The question is, what is the formula?
Perhaps it is a youth system that searches a little deeper for not the just the next superstar, but also for the type of players that just aren't quite good enough to draw the attention of other majopr European teams, but do play well within a system - adding to the idea of a "team" mentality.
As for European football, I feel as though deep success shouldn't even be a real thought right now for us. If Ajax was in the Premiership, I can't help but think we would be doing no better that say Fulham, Villa, or Middlesbrough and I guarantee those teams fans don't even think about European success. Ajax has to fix the problems within the league first before we can set our sights higher.
Couldn't agree more. It's not only a matter of the financial space between teams, but also between leagues. Right now the gap between the upper leagues, like the Premiership, as compared to the Eredivisie when it comes to television money, exposure, and attendance is huge.Football all across the world has become a business. It is run by businessmen. Chelski is a prime example. The competitions with the big money attract the best players, and until UEFA/FIFA steps in the rich will get richer and the poor poorer. Simple economics. The only way Ajax could ever compete in this financial circus is by going back to its roots of progressive ideas. That is what makes us different from all other clubs. Forward looking, innovative ideas. Not trying to imitate the past.
So it is up to Ajax to re-invent what "Ajax football" is. Within the Eredivisie I think there is a formula for success that is there, considering that all teams in the league are basically "sell" teams and are on a level playing field when it comes to competition amongst each other. The question is, what is the formula?
Perhaps it is a youth system that searches a little deeper for not the just the next superstar, but also for the type of players that just aren't quite good enough to draw the attention of other majopr European teams, but do play well within a system - adding to the idea of a "team" mentality.
As for European football, I feel as though deep success shouldn't even be a real thought right now for us. If Ajax was in the Premiership, I can't help but think we would be doing no better that say Fulham, Villa, or Middlesbrough and I guarantee those teams fans don't even think about European success. Ajax has to fix the problems within the league first before we can set our sights higher.
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Monkey Tonk
- Berichten: 9667
- Lid geworden op: vr sep 19, 2003 6:54 pm
- Locatie: route 66
The one coach that has the capacity to bring Ajax to the next level, in my opinion, is van Gaal. He has a proven track record. Of course, whenever someone sticks his head above the grass in Holland, and then has a lesser period, the Dutch are very quick to chop it off. Which brings us to a problem that finally seems to have caught up with even Ajax...
The Dutch don't like heroes. In Holland a hero isn't regarded as someone who shows what is possible through excellence, but as a personal threat to mediocrity. "Be normal, and that's crazy enough" should be a line in the national anthem.
In the US stars like John Elway or Joe Montana are universally respected, by fans of all teams and by the general population. In Holland people jump on even Johan Cruyff when he speaks out of line. Gullit, although not as gifted, was another player who completely bought into the hero concept. With remarkable results. These days he's pretty much a joke in Holland. The social control in the country is terrible.
You can't grow up to be hero if you are taught not to believe in the hero mindset. The mindset in the sixties -everything is possible!-, was very conducive to Johan Cruyff and his influence on Ajax and Dutch soccer. These days, however, we're back to being practical and cynical. No way anything special will grow out of that.
Once Ajax was the oasis in the Dutch desert, the one place where people dared to dream and where dreams still came true, a breath of fresh air, and a rare exception to a national gravity entirely unknown to Newton. Nowadays Ajax is held accountable by fans for playing the 'Ajax style'. Like a beautiful woman that once was a knockout, but now is merely expected to keep up her aging appearance. WTF?
New Year's Resolution for Ajax: Back to the drawing board!
Suggestion: play faster (improve technique to play faster), and be much more creative in offensive area between midfield and penalty box; with quickly executed triangles culminating in a decisive pass; 'borrow' from Argentina from 1978. Set a ridiculously high standard for quick, short 'speed passing' and practice until it becomes second nature. If the normal capacity for this type of passing is two or three in a row, increase it to five or six. By that time the defense should be out of whack. By focusing the attack through the middle, space will also open up on the wings. The wings will become far more dangerous when the opponent's first point of concern is the middle.
On the defensive end, apply forward pressure at all times like Holland in '74. Underlying convinction: the opponent does NOT have the right to the ball. Borrow different aspects of the game from the best, then improve on each.
Give the players something new and exciting to work towards, rather than subtle variations of the same old, same old. That should get them much more involved. The enemy of Ajax is predictability.
Ajax is an idea first. So start with new and improved ideas. If it helps, create a special think tank to keep Ajax fresh and unpredictable each season. Never again allow the opponents to catch up with our style. Never again be stagnant. The element of surprise should by definition be ours. You ain't seen nothin' yet!
The Dutch don't like heroes. In Holland a hero isn't regarded as someone who shows what is possible through excellence, but as a personal threat to mediocrity. "Be normal, and that's crazy enough" should be a line in the national anthem.
In the US stars like John Elway or Joe Montana are universally respected, by fans of all teams and by the general population. In Holland people jump on even Johan Cruyff when he speaks out of line. Gullit, although not as gifted, was another player who completely bought into the hero concept. With remarkable results. These days he's pretty much a joke in Holland. The social control in the country is terrible.
You can't grow up to be hero if you are taught not to believe in the hero mindset. The mindset in the sixties -everything is possible!-, was very conducive to Johan Cruyff and his influence on Ajax and Dutch soccer. These days, however, we're back to being practical and cynical. No way anything special will grow out of that.
Once Ajax was the oasis in the Dutch desert, the one place where people dared to dream and where dreams still came true, a breath of fresh air, and a rare exception to a national gravity entirely unknown to Newton. Nowadays Ajax is held accountable by fans for playing the 'Ajax style'. Like a beautiful woman that once was a knockout, but now is merely expected to keep up her aging appearance. WTF?
New Year's Resolution for Ajax: Back to the drawing board!
Suggestion: play faster (improve technique to play faster), and be much more creative in offensive area between midfield and penalty box; with quickly executed triangles culminating in a decisive pass; 'borrow' from Argentina from 1978. Set a ridiculously high standard for quick, short 'speed passing' and practice until it becomes second nature. If the normal capacity for this type of passing is two or three in a row, increase it to five or six. By that time the defense should be out of whack. By focusing the attack through the middle, space will also open up on the wings. The wings will become far more dangerous when the opponent's first point of concern is the middle.
On the defensive end, apply forward pressure at all times like Holland in '74. Underlying convinction: the opponent does NOT have the right to the ball. Borrow different aspects of the game from the best, then improve on each.
Give the players something new and exciting to work towards, rather than subtle variations of the same old, same old. That should get them much more involved. The enemy of Ajax is predictability.
Ajax is an idea first. So start with new and improved ideas. If it helps, create a special think tank to keep Ajax fresh and unpredictable each season. Never again allow the opponents to catch up with our style. Never again be stagnant. The element of surprise should by definition be ours. You ain't seen nothin' yet!
i agree with you. i'm 22 now, i didn't wached ajax in the 70. but i know one thing. this ajax today is not ajax that i want to see. this is not my ajax, this is not the symbol it should to be. the rullers today wants to make ajax like everybody else. i dont want to say its their foult, but enyway the result is bad. i dont considere myself for a football expert, but i do know one thikg - we are not like everybady else.
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Rubin Stark
- Berichten: 48
- Lid geworden op: vr okt 28, 2005 12:30 am
Monkey Tonk, thanks for those two brilliant posts.
I have always thought - at least from my outsider's perspective - the Ajax culture can at times be a little too insular and resistant to change. It may be important to preserve some Ajax 'thinking', but I don't see how this is anything but arrogance when the system is unsuccessful.
Unless you're in a protected environment, the smaller fish who realise success are generally the ones who piss all over the rules and the accepted ways of doing things. Risk and reward.
I have always thought - at least from my outsider's perspective - the Ajax culture can at times be a little too insular and resistant to change. It may be important to preserve some Ajax 'thinking', but I don't see how this is anything but arrogance when the system is unsuccessful.
Unless you're in a protected environment, the smaller fish who realise success are generally the ones who piss all over the rules and the accepted ways of doing things. Risk and reward.
"The joy of seeing Yuri Gargarin flying in space is only superseded by the joy of
a good penalty save." - Lev Yashin
a good penalty save." - Lev Yashin
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Over Pasanens Head
- Berichten: 829
- Lid geworden op: do nov 06, 2003 2:45 pm
- Locatie: Not Where He Would Like To Be
Agree with you that van Gaal was a very good coach, but he was very lucky in that he arrived on the 1st team scene just as a world class bunch of players were coming through. If he had the current lot I do really doubt that he could do any better than ten Cate.Monkey Tonk schreef:The one coach that has the capacity to bring Ajax to the next level, in my opinion, is van Gaal.
Well rock and roll is such a crazy drug,
It wraps you up in a great big hug
It wraps you up in a great big hug
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Monkey Tonk
- Berichten: 9667
- Lid geworden op: vr sep 19, 2003 6:54 pm
- Locatie: route 66
You're probably right. And van Gaal is too stuck in his own style as well.
For lack of an authority like Cruyff, I'm leaning more towards a think tank with drastic, creative ideas. These people should be carefully selected and would set the course each year. In this dynamic the coach would be told to execute the club plan (and develop the proper training exercises), now undergoing precisely formulated changes from year to year. The club would no longer rely so heavily on a coach, and the flow of fresh ideas -to give Ajax its edge- would be more or less guaranteed.
For lack of an authority like Cruyff, I'm leaning more towards a think tank with drastic, creative ideas. These people should be carefully selected and would set the course each year. In this dynamic the coach would be told to execute the club plan (and develop the proper training exercises), now undergoing precisely formulated changes from year to year. The club would no longer rely so heavily on a coach, and the flow of fresh ideas -to give Ajax its edge- would be more or less guaranteed.
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Over Pasanens Head
- Berichten: 829
- Lid geworden op: do nov 06, 2003 2:45 pm
- Locatie: Not Where He Would Like To Be
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Kowalczyk
- Moderator English Section
- Berichten: 13845
- Lid geworden op: vr sep 19, 2003 12:54 pm
- Locatie: AMSTERDAM
- Contacteer:
He played two games now. Looks like a good goalkeeper. Nothing spectacular, though. The two goals he let in were unstoppable. Not his fault. Otherwise he did well.
Having said that: I also think Stekelenburg was quite good in recent months. One of the very few Ajax players who not to blame for the slump we've had.
K.
Having said that: I also think Stekelenburg was quite good in recent months. One of the very few Ajax players who not to blame for the slump we've had.
K.
Still alive...
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Van basten
- Berichten: 1769
- Lid geworden op: zo dec 17, 2006 8:24 am
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Kowalczyk
- Moderator English Section
- Berichten: 13845
- Lid geworden op: vr sep 19, 2003 12:54 pm
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- Contacteer:
Well, fact is that he has been pretty damn good in recent months. Absolutely no complaints whatsoever, so let's give him a break. He's improved.Van basten schreef:Top class? i'm not sure about that..philippe schreef:Stekelenburg is a top class goal keeper now, interesting to know how his substitute is doing though
K.
Still alive...