27 Sep 2005: Ajax - Arsenal FC

[Kowalczyk]

My two cents...

I am not sure about that penalty. I wouldn't call it a blatant dive, but Reyes was definitely happy to fall down, at the very least. Let's call it opportunism: Vonk offered him a perfect opportunity to go for a penalty, and that's what he did. Like Aveslacker says, it seems like Reyes initiated the contact -- and not Vonk. The referee could have decided not to give it, based on these facts.

On the other hand: Vonk made an enormous mistake by going for that ball in the first place. Reyes was in a tight angle; Vonk should have stayed on the line. But he went for the ball, dived in front of Reyes and (even though he pulled his arms back) his upper body was an obstacle for Reyes -- and you can't expect a striker to jump over such an obstacle. They'd rather touch it and fall down.

You can see that Vonk hesitates and decides to not to go for the ball (he kind of pulls his arms back), but his body slides towards Reyes, there is contact and the striker says 'thank you very much'. Welcome to the world of professional football.

I don't know what the referee should have done, but it's such a tricky situation that I won't blame him for his decision. This is how it goes and I don't think it made much of a difference: Ajax's goal was one of those goals that could never have been the equalizer. Had the score still been 0-1, Arsenal simply wouldn't have let it happen (or, more precisely: Ajax would never have launched such a fierce attack).

This defeat could never have been a draw, I'm afraid. We lost the game in the 2nd minute.

K.

[SE6Ajacied]

Ajax's goal was one of those goals that could never have been the equalizer. Had the score still been 0-1, Arsenal simply wouldn't have let it happen (or, more precisely: Ajax would never have launched such a fierce attack).

That's what everyone seems to have missed. I agree that the goal was much more a "2-1" goal than a "1-1" goal. As for the penalty, haven't seen the TV yet so can't comment on Vonk's arms etc but I really don't see the ref had a choice. Someone's already said that Vonk is a little old to be that naive and I agree - I'm sure Reyes was more than happy to oblige and fall over when Vonk threw himself at him but that sort of thing goes on all over - we lost, time to pick ourselves up for the weekend.

Hup Ajax

[Philippe]

As for the penalty, haven't seen the TV yet so can't comment on Vonk's arms etc but I really don't see the ref had a choice.

:D ;)

[dws]

Ajax's goal was one of those goals that could never have been the equalizer. Had the score still been 0-1, Arsenal simply wouldn't have let it happen (or, more precisely: Ajax would never have launched such a fierce attack).

This defeat could never have been a draw, I'm afraid. We lost the game in the 2nd minute.

I agree with you up to a point, namely the Ajax equaliser from Rosenberg would not have come about had the penalty not been awarded. If the referee had not awarded a pk then everything that happened after the pk had been converted would not have occured. To then state that the final outcome would have been the same, regardless of the referee's decision, is stretching things beyond logic. We simply don't know how the game would have panned out had the referee not awarded the penalty.

[bluedaddy19]

My two cents...

I am not sure about that penalty. I wouldn't call it a blatant dive, but Reyes was definitely happy to fall down, at the very least. Let's call it opportunism: Vonk offered him a perfect opportunity to go for a penalty, and that's what he did. Like Aveslacker says, it seems like Reyes initiated the contact -- and not Vonk.

They'd rather touch it and fall down.

You can see that Vonk hesitates and decides to not to go for the ball (he kind of pulls his arms back), but his body slides towards Reyes, there is contact and the striker says 'thank you very much'. Welcome to the world of professional football.

I don't know what the referee should have done...
K.

i do: he can grow a brain

seriously, why is everyone here just jumping on the "oh well, reyes would rather play for the foul than the ball" bandwagon?

guess what? then, it's not a foul!!!! how difficult is this?

last time i looked in the rule book, it said a foul was for a player being obstructed during play - i don't ever recall seeing a rule that allows for "convenient acting" on a penalty call... meanwhile, our players are being taken down and we can't even get a whistle

i suppose its crazy me for expecting both teams to be playing by the same rules

smash our face in? no problem!!! too lazy to take one 10cm hurdle and push the ball into the back of the net? no problem!!! we'll do it for you!!!

yeah, we should definitely encourage this utter garbage by rewarding the simulators... i guess while we're at it, we should also start running the squad through daily "dive like a bitch" drills... ya know... since "that's football"

:pukey:

[Philippe]

guess what? then, it's not a foul!!!! how difficult is this?

bloody well right

sometimes things are so obvious that we don't notice them ...

[bluedaddy19]

bloody well right

sometimes things are so obvious that we don't notice them ...

thank you! i just don't understand why people keep saying "oh that's football"

ummm no it ain't! unless my rule book is out of date!

furthermore, if i was a coach, and my player wanted to flop like a fish instead of doing everything he can to put that ball into that wide open net... i would bench his ass

[Philippe]

if i was a coach, and my player wanted to flop like a fish instead of doing everything he can to put that ball into that wide open net... i would bench his ass

there is an interesting scene in the documentary that was released for Ajax' 100 anniversary ("they heard the angels sing") where Wouters gives a lecture to the striker after the game for the same type of behaviour and tells him he should have played for the ball

[The Purple Cow]

It was clearly a foul, Vonk took Rayes's feet out from under him for Christ's sake. Now of course Reyes made a meal out of it, anybody would. It was about a blatant a penalty as I have seeen this last 10 years.

The point is that a goalkeeper of Vonk's experience should have known better than to go charging in like a maniac, he should have stayed on his feet. In the final analysis It doesn't matter who initiated the contact (though it was clearly Vonk). Vonk allowing the opportunity for contact was clearly the blunder that led to a totaly unneccesary goal.

Anyway, what-ev-ah, water-under-the-bridge etc etc

[bluedaddy19]

It was clearly a foul, Vonk took Rayes's feet out from under him for Christ's sake.

clueless

screw this, save the clip now if you want because i'm pulling it off of my server

[Philippe]

It doesn't matter who initiated the contact (though it was clearly Vonk). Vonk allowing the opportunity for contact was clearly the blunder that led to a totaly unneccesary goal.

:drecul2:

an experienced goal keeper like him should have run away from the goal to avoid contact

[Cedric]

I assume you have nothing to do in your life to waste so much time for this... You keep whining on this board, but then ? what does it change ? NOTHING. We do have our opinion on this point, you admit you're unable to understand it, end of the story...

So pass your exam to become referee, and apply the law as you interpret them. Good luck !

[Frans]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. FIFA can stop this simulation rubbish. They simply have to introduce post match video analysis and hit anyone caught diving hard in the pocket and with hefty match bans.

They cared enough about something as trivial as taking off your shirt to celebrate a goal to take steps to stamp it out. Surely they can introduce measures to curb diving.

[Philippe]

you have nothing to do in your life to waste so much time for this...

do not waste your own time, "We" ! :D :blah

from ajax.nl :
"As if things weren't difficult enough, Ajax had to cope with a crucial mistake by the referee. Reyes broke through, halfway the second half, and only Hans Vonk could stop it. The goalkeeper came late, but withdrew his hands when there would have been contact with the Arsenal forward. Reyes went to the ground and saw his intentions rewarded. Referee Luís Medina Cantalejo awarded Arsenal a penalty on advice by his linesman."

[bluedaddy19]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. FIFA can stop this simulation rubbish. They simply have to introduce post match video analysis and hit anyone caught diving hard in the pocket and with hefty match bans.

They cared enough about something as trivial as taking off your shirt to celebrate a goal to take steps to stamp it out. Surely they can introduce measures to curb diving.

they really really really need to... i call it the pussification of soccer

do we really want every match looking like an argentina-portugal soap opera? maybe the players can all wear speedos and we can have style judges too!

5.9 5.8 6.0 5.8 5.9

it's a disgrace

[aveslacker]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. FIFA can stop this simulation rubbish. They simply have to introduce post match video analysis and hit anyone caught diving hard in the pocket and with hefty match bans.

They cared enough about something as trivial as taking off your shirt to celebrate a goal to take steps to stamp it out. Surely they can introduce measures to curb diving.

they really really really need to... i call it the pussification of soccer

do we really want every match looking like an argentina-portugal soap opera? maybe the players can all wear speedos and we can have style judges too!

5.9 5.8 6.0 5.8 5.9

it's a disgrace

I agree, it is a disgrace. And while this is beginning to belabor the point too much, I just can't see how anyone can say that Vonk initiated contact. Reyes clearly brings his left foot into Vonk.

The whole diving epidemic in soccer makes me wax nostalgic for rugby, cricket, or even <gasp> gridiron.

And my Venezuelan Ajacied amigo the reason that there are more penalties called in ice hockey is because it is a contact sport, played at a very fast pace, in an enclosed environment. But I wouldn't worry about it too much, it won't exist as a sport too much longer anyway. :D :D :D (joking of course)

But this is also a bit of a non-issue in the sense that there are far more important items on the table with respect to Ajax's lack of results lately. Then again, there is broad agreement on that subject, and everyone knows that the most boring conversation is one in which everyone agrees. Right?:yes:

[bluedaddy19]

Then again, there is broad agreement on that subject, and everyone knows that the most boring conversation is one in which everyone agrees. Right?:yes:

bingo!

i could sit here and babble all day about how we need to get fit, we need pienaar to choose placement over power, we need vonk to play his age, we need time for some young guys to get comfortable at this level, we need babel to realize that he is allowed to pass the ball, etc.

not exactly earth shattering stuff

[Venezuelan Ajacied]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. FIFA can stop this simulation rubbish. They simply have to introduce post match video analysis and hit anyone caught diving hard in the pocket and with hefty match bans.
They cared enough about something as trivial as taking off your shirt to celebrate a goal to take steps to stamp it out. Surely they can introduce measures to curb diving.

they really really really need to... i call it the pussification of soccer

do we really want every match looking like an argentina-portugal soap opera? maybe the players can all wear speedos and we can have style judges too!

5.9 5.8 6.0 5.8 5.9

it's a disgrace

I agree, it is a disgrace. And while this is beginning to belabor the point too much, I just can't see how anyone can say that Vonk initiated contact. Reyes clearly brings his left foot into Vonk.

The whole diving epidemic in soccer makes me wax nostalgic for rugby, cricket, or even <gasp> gridiron.

And my Venezuelan Ajacied amigo the reason that there are more penalties called in ice hockey is because it is a contact sport, played at a very fast pace, in an enclosed environment. But I wouldn't worry about it too much, it won't exist as a sport too much longer anyway. :D :D :D (joking of course)

But this is also a bit of a non-issue in the sense that there are far more important items on the table with respect to Ajax's lack of results lately. Then again, there is broad agreement on that subject, and everyone knows that the most boring conversation is one in which everyone agrees. Right?:yes:

Frans has a good point there, how about they slam the referee with a fine too for being so freaking blind.

Aveslacker im talking about the rule changes in the called "New NHL", the refs are just calling any minimal contact, its really dectracting from the game, no more five on five.Anyway this is a Football board not hockey so i'll shut up :D

Ps: Aveslacker, you a Caps fan ????

[aveslacker]

Ps: Aveslacker, you a Caps fan ????

I'm generally not a fan of a particular team (and hockey is not really one of my favorite sports) but I have seen them play before. I might check out one game a season, but I prefer soccer (among other sports) over hockey. What about you?

[The Purple Cow]

"I agree, it is a disgrace. And while this is beginning to belabor the point too much, I just can't see how anyone can say that Vonk initiated contact. Reyes clearly brings his left foot into Vonk."

Oh FFS, it doesn't fucking matter who 'initiated contact' the fact is that there WAS contact and Vonk took both of Rayes's feet. The video from behind the goal showed that CLEARLY.

***
“An experienced goal keeper like him should have run away from the goal to avoid contact.”

Phillippe, don't act like a cunt, it doesn't suit you. You know full that's not what I said.

Try to keep your personal arrogance in check.

[dws]

it doesn't fucking matter who 'initiated contact' the fact is that there WAS contact and Vonk took both of Rayes's feet

It certainly matters.I doubt if anyone, including myself, who argued against the award of the penalty would have done so had Vonk initiated contact.

[Cedric]

:cheer: Next round please ! :D

[dws]

Cedric you shit stirring Froggy :D :D :xyxthumbs:

[aveslacker]

Oh FFS, it doesn't fucking matter who 'initiated contact' the fact is that there WAS contact and Vonk took both of Rayes's feet. The video from behind the goal showed that CLEARLY.

Ugh. I thought I was done with this. Contact does not equal foul. If that were the case then there would be fouls called all over the field. This isn't croquet they're playing. Further more, it is vitally important who initiates the contact. If player A punches player B, you can't book player B for a foul.

I don't really see how one can conclude that Vonk took Reyes out. Reyes clearly brought his left foot into Vonk, dragged it back slightly, simulating that it was taken out -- this is the part which is illegal -- and fell over.

Listen, there is no real reason for anyone to get shirty about this. I'm only responding because I have a stubborn, argumentative streak in me. It is pretty obvious to me that there are two camps on this issue that aren't going to concur on what happened, and I'm fine with that. I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Furthermore, I think everyone is getting tired of this discussion, so if you (or anyone else, for that matter) want to continue this, perhaps we should do so over PM's to save everyone grief.

[The Purple Cow]

Well aveslacker just one last thing.

Why do you think nobody in the world outside of amsterdam has questioned that it was a penalty?