The Big Euro 2008 Discussion

[DanK]

Brilliant. Brilliant display. Totally deserved.

One of the best Holland wins for some time imo. Maybe since the Argentina game in 98.

Not worried about how tough the next few games will still be. I am just going to enjoy the feeling of beating Italy so powerfully. Sweet-sweet justice for 2000, and of course for Australia in WC 2006.

Also, can we have Sneijder back at Ajax please???

[Cedric]

Totally unexpected... but what a revenge for Van Basten!

[carcajou]

OHOHOHO that was good. But France will be another story on Friday. I can't wait.

[aveslacker]

Let's hope that van Basten can bring this rollicking style of play to Ajax.

Well played Oranje.

[The Purple Cow]

Final clarification of Law 11.1

"A defender who leaves the field during the course of play and does not immediately return must still be considered in determining where the second to last defender is for the purpose of judging which attackers are in an offside position. Such a defender is considered to be on the touch line or goal line closest to his or her off-field position. A defender who leaves the field with the referee's permission (and who thus requires the referee's permission to return) is not included."

[aveslacker]

Thanks for the clarification -- I was wondering what the ruling was. It would be sweet, poetic justice if the Italian player was faking injury to remain behind the line, thinking he was out of the play and keeping Ruud offside.

[DanK]

Thanks for the clarification -- I was wondering what the ruling was. It would be sweet, poetic justice if the Italian player was faking injury to remain behind the line, thinking he was out of the play and keeping Ruud offside.

What goes around, finally, finally comes around.

Actually didn't Buffon push him off the field??? Classic.

[AjaxPDX]

Actually, the ref may have got the first goal wrong. Rule 11.1 (as stated above) has been modified more recently to state the player off the field is only classified as an active player if he's off the field by choice. The rule was originally written to prevent defenders from simply stepping over the endline, thus taking themselves "off" the field, and thus making the offensive player offside. So the rule has since been clarified that it only applies to that kind of situation, where the player steps out by choice. Panucci obviously didn't decide to leave the field by choice... he was knocked over the endline by the collision with Buffon.

Regardless, the 3-0 scoreline makes the ref's decision on the first goal pretty irrelevant. Oranje put on a clinic today, especially when it comes to length-of-the-field incisive counter attacks. Great, great performance and result.

[Tom_]

It was a good win, but Italy were pretty weak. I thought it was a tactical error in the first half to allow Holland 60% possession. Italy could've turned it around in the second half if it hadn't been for van der Sar and the fact that del Piero wasn't interested in hitting the target. Anyway should be able to get out of the group now.

[DanK]

..Rule 11.1 (as stated above) has been modified more recently to state the player off the field is only classified as an active player if he's off the field by choice...

His choice was made for him by Buffon

[Frans]

Regardless, the 3-0 scoreline makes the ref's decision on the first goal pretty irrelevant. Oranje put on a clinic today, especially when it comes to length-of-the-field incisive counter attacks. Great, great performance and result.

I would say the decision was far from irrelevant. Maybe if it was the third goal, then yes, irrelevant. But, because Italy fell behind they had to push forward to look for a goal and then Oranje scores on 2 counter-attacks.

Not that I give a shit about the Italians. Absolutely over the moon about this result.

[Manneken Pis]

But, because Italy fell behind they had to push forward to look for a goal

Yeah, it's terrible when that happens....

[The Purple Cow]

"Actually, the ref may have got the first goal wrong. Rule 11.1 (as stated above) has been modified more recently to state the player off the field is only classified as an active player if he's off the field by choice."

Well if that is the case, the modification is neither known to the chairman of the Italian referee's association nor available on the USSSF website.

[Jinne]

Let say it was the choice of Buffon then. ;)

[SPL]

great game by the Oranje what a magic goal from Wes.

[ZoefdeHaas]

Heyhey 3-0!!! Great result, solid performance, and most players did very well.


:hupajax.gif: :hupajax.gif:

This gives needed confidence boost, and hopefully France would look abit scared especially after their draw.

[DanK]

From BBC site:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/footbal ... 445476.stm

Dutch goal correct says ref chief
By Andrew McKenzie

Dutch striker Ruud van Nistelrooy's opening goal in the win over Italy was legitimate, says Premier League referees' chief Keith Hackett.

Van Nistelrooy looked yards offside when he prodded home from close range.

But it appears he was played onside by defender Christian Panucci, who was lying off the pitch at the time.

"The fact is the assistant was correct; the defender who slid off the field is still regarded as active," Hackett told BBC Sport.

"Christian Panucci went off through contact with his own goalkeeper (Gianluigi) Buffon. He is still considered part of the game."

Uefa general secretary David Taylor said Swedish referee Peter Frojdfeldt and his assistant Stefan Wittberg were absolutely correct in their interpretation.

He told a news conference: "There is a lack of understanding as to why this particular goal was awarded. In fact some television commentators have insisted the goal was clearly offside, but that is not the case.

"The player was not offside because in addition to the goalkeeper there was another Italian player in front of the goalscorer. Even though he had fallen off the pitch his position was still relevant for the purposes of the offside law.

[Philippe]

UEFA supports Dutch goal decision
by Mark Chaplin from Basel


UEFA has emphasised that the goal scored by Netherlands striker Ruud van Nistelrooy in last night's UEFA EURO 2008™ match against Italy in Berne was valid, and that referee Peter Fröjdfeldt acted correctly in awarding it.
Not offside
UEFA General Secretary David Taylor was reacting to claims from some quarters that Van Nistelrooy was standing in an offside position when he scored the first of the Netherlands' goals in their 3-0 win. "I would like to take the opportunity to explain and emphasise that the goal was correctly awarded by the referee team," he said. "I think there's a lack of understanding among the general football public, and I think it's understandable because this was an unusual situation. The player was not offside, because, in addition to the Italian goalkeeper, there was another Italian player in front of the goalscorer. Even though that other Italian player at the time had actually fallen off the pitch, his position was still relevant for the purposes of the offside law."

Still involved
The starting point, said Mr Taylor, is the Laws of the Game – Law 11 – which deal with offside, whereby a player is in an offside position if he is nearer to his opponents' goalline than both the ball and the second-last opponent. "There need to be two defenders involved," the UEFA General Secretary said. "If you think back to the situation, the first is the goalkeeper, and the second is the defender who, because of his momentum, actually had left the field of play. But this defender was still deemed to be part of the game. Therefore he is taken into consideration as one of the last two opponents. As a result, Ruud van Nistelrooy was not nearer to the opponents' goal than the second-last defender and, therefore, could not be in an offside position.

Rare incident
"This is a widely-known interpretation of the offside law among referees that is not generally known by the wider football public," he continued. "Incidents like this are very unusual – although I'm informed that there was an incident like this about a month ago in a Swiss Super League match between FC Sion and FC Basel 1893. [It was] initially suggested that this [goal] was a mistake by the referee in terms of the offside law – the commentator later apologised publicly, as he didn't realise that this was the correct application of the law."

Law applied
Mr Taylor concluded: "So let's be clear – the referees' team applied the law in the correct manner. If we did not have this interpretation of the player being off the pitch then what could happen is that the defending team could use the tactic of stepping off the pitch deliberately to play players offside, and that clearly is unacceptable. The most simple and practical interpretation of the law in this instance is the one that is adopted by referees throughout the world – that is that unless you have permission from the referee to be off the pitch, you are deemed to be on it and deemed to be part of the game. That is why the Italian defender, even though his momentum had taken him off the pitch, was still deemed to be part of the game, and therefore the attacking player put the ball into the net, and it was a valid goal. The law in this place was applied absolutely correctly."

[Kowalczyk]

It's been a long, long time since I've bee this enthusiastic about Oranje. This was an absolutely great performance. Good passing, high pace, loads of passion and they were really up for it. I never expected this, but after a crap 2006 World Cup and a yaen-fest of a qualification campaign they somehow managed to pull this performance out of their rear-ends, and I'm truly impressed.

Very well done, Holland. Keep it up (this was only the first group game, you know... we can still cash out in the first round if we lose to France - which is possible - and f*ck it up against Romania like we did twice in the qualification group).

I loved the chemistry in midfield: two 'defensive' players (De Jong and Engelaar) and two creative ones (Sneijder and Van der Vaart). The balance was near perfect.

My Man of the Match: Van Bronckhorst. He was great. Flawless in defence, he cleared a ball of the goal line, gave the cross for the second goal and scored the third one himself (after setting the attack up, too). Impressive. I loved Kuyt's work-rate, I loved the way Van Basten went nuts after the second goal (I've never seen him this fanatical; it was a bit like Jürgen Klinsmann two years ago). I loved pretty much everything about this match of football. Wow.

K.

[gordonvandekamp]

Completely agree, that was one of the best matches I've seen in awhile. I pretty much agree with everything Ko said. I think Engelaar and De Jong were fantastic and their roles gave the back line some time to breathe and then create offensively. Boulahrouz did well for a player who seemed to disappear from the club scene last season. I think a setup like this could have paid dividends for Ajax this year.

The build-up and counter-attack (and spacing) were fantastic, especially on Sneijder's goal. It really was total domination to have Gio take it off the line and then play the great ball to Kuijt. Sneijder's twisting karate kick finish was magnificent.

The biggest surprise to me was that there didn't really seem to be a weakness in any of the players. The defense (and holding midfield) was solid and the attack was creative and effective. I'm not sure they could have played any better with Babel and Robben. It may be interesting to see what happens upon their return.

I would have liked to see Huntelaar on instead of Affelay (although he did well and hit the bar). I wouldn't be surprised to see Ruud get some rest in one of the upcoming matches.

Hopefully a performance like that can give them the confidence to win the whole thing, and if Holland plays like that, I think they will. It really could be Holland's tournament to lose.

[gordonvandekamp]

And one more thing regarding Ruud's goal, which appears to have been confirmed as legit today.

I consider that sort of thing payback for every time an opponent dives in the box to win a penalty or payback for legit goals that were ruled offside. It's just the football gods balancing things out in the end for those that play the game the way it should be played.

[Kowalczyk]

Spain vs Russia today. Should be a very interesting one.

The Spanish side looks great as usual, but for some reason it never works. They're the epitome of an underachiever. I hope they'll do well, but they'll probably crash out early again.

Russia is one of my 'dark horses'. They could reach far.

Both teams play quality football. Should be a nice one.

K.

[Kowalczyk]

I consider that sort of thing payback for every time an opponent dives in the box to win a penalty or payback for legit goals that were ruled offside. It's just the football gods balancing things out in the end for those that play the game the way it should be played.

Yeah. Remember that 1-on-1 Van Nistelrooy had early in the game? Buffon touched him. Enough contact for a penalty, I thought. An Italian striker would have lied down, screaming and gesturing as if he'd broken both of his legs. Van Nistelrooy, however, stayed on his feet and did not get the penno (whereas I really thought he deserved one).

I must admit: I didn't know that particular offside rule. During the game I just thought it was a embarrassing 'Wamberto goal' (like the one in the 2002 cup final against Utrecht).

K.

[gordonvandekamp]

Yeah, that van Nistelrooy example is a perfect one and why things should work out in the end.

He didn't dive like probably 80% of players would today. He showed determination and still tried his best to score even though he came up without his balance and was impeded. I think he probably deserved a penalty too, but I also don't expect the ref to always call it in that situation (which he didn't).

And another note I forgot, Engelaar looks to have continued the same form that dumped us out of the playoffs. I think he may be the biggest 'new' star to come out of the squad this tournament.

[ajaxusa]

"Actually, the ref may have got the first goal wrong. Rule 11.1 (as stated above) has been modified more recently to state the player off the field is only classified as an active player if he's off the field by choice."

Well if that is the case, the modification is neither known to the chairman of the Italian referee's association nor available on the USSSF website.

Ah, but it IS available in FIFA's web site. The following clarification of law 11 appears near the end of FIFA's Laws of the Game (pdf):

If a defending player steps behind his own goal line in order to place an opponent in an offside position, the referee shall allow play to continue and caution the defender for deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission when the ball is next out of play.

I think there is some vagueness because of the suggestion of intent in the words "... in order to...". The Italian defender was basically pushed off the field when he collided with his teammate. Do you think the defender stayed off the field in order to keep Van Nistelroy in an offside position? Does that matter? I think the refs got it right, but I can't be sure.

I think UEFA has decided to put the matter to rest by declaring the refs got it right. But I don't know if it's really that cut and dry.

In any event, it's the best Dutch performance since... hm... Holland-Argentina?