World Cup 2006

[Philippe]

Will the van der Sar gang win ?

[Manneken Pis]

Will the van der Sar gang win ?

Nope, but everyone will rave about how nicely they played..... :sad:

[Kowalczyk]

I don't think we will win it, but I can already tell you that the fact that we won't will have nothing to do with the 'Holland always fail' myth.

If you look at the players and the quality of the squad I think Holland are one out of the five best. Which means that we are one of the candidates for the final. I guess.

But being one of the five best means that you can win the World Cup, but you can also crash out in the quarter finals (for the simple reason that only four teams can be in the semis...).

What will happen will depend on small things: form on the day, luck, mistakes by the referee and the opposition. If we bump into France or Brazil in the second round the voyage may end right there. Does that mean you failed? I don't know.

Normally we're quarter final material at least. But that's all you can say.

The whole 'Holland always fail' myth is complete bollocks, if you ask me.

Look at the facts. We did not qualify for the World Cup 1982, Euro 1984 and the World Cup 1986, simply because we were shit in those years. After that, our record looks like this (the tournaments that I made bold are the ones where you can in all honesty say that we failed/underachieved):

Euro 1988: European champions
World Cup 1990: second round
Euro 1992: semi-final (eliminated on pennos)
World Cup 1994: quarter final (eliminated by Brazil, the world champions)
Euro 1996: quarter final (eliminated by France, on pennos)
World Cup 1998: semi-final (eliminated by Brazil)
Euro 2000: semi-final (eliminated by Italy on pennos)
World Cup 2002: not qualified

I wouldn't say that this a bad record. There are two examples of piss-poor underachievement, but I think Germany, France and Brazil have their own examples of that. We were almost always eliminated by a superb team. It would be a bad sign of we always lost to superb teams and never managed to beat one, but that's not exactly the case.

Also: it's bollocks that we always 'look good', but always concede unfortunate defeats. In 1988 we beat Ireland and Germany in the dying minutes, in 1994 we never had the lead against Brazil but equalized twice, in 1998 we beat Argentina in the dying minutes and secured a penalty shoot-out in the semi-final (Brazil) by equalizing in the 88th minute. And in 2004 we equalized against Germany in the last minutes and beat Sweden on pennos. In other words: we know what luck is. We're not always unfortunate or something. We scored more last-gasp goals against Germany than they did against us (whereas they have the reputation for it!).

That whole 'injustice' trauma simply doesn't exist (and if it does it isn't based on anything). We have a pretty damn' good record for a country with a population you could compare to Sweden, Belgium, Austria or Switzerland. Just like in club football we are historically the 'biggest of the small ones'. The only small nation that can - sometimes - seriously compete with the big ones and has a totally unique reputation in football.

Next year we will once again have one of the better squads. We could win the thing, but if we don't we're definitely not the only great squad that didn't win it.

K.

[ZoefdeHaas]

Holland lost to Italy on penalties during Euro 2000

I think this will be a tough tourny, but I think Holland are one of the current Euro favourites atm

[Kowalczyk]

Holland lost to Italy on penalties during Euro 2000

Oops. Corrected.

Losing to Brazil at a European Championship... That would have been seriously unfortunate... Like getting killed by a lion during a trip to Iceland... :D

K.

[Philippe]

I think everyone agrees that Holland had the best team and played the best football in 1974, and in 1998.
In those days, the Dutch national squad was 90% Ajax made.

[Kowalczyk]

I think everyone agrees that Holland had the best team and played the best football in 1974, and in 1998. In those days, the Dutch national squad was 90% Ajax made.

In 1974 it was (that team was pretty much the Ajax of Johan Cruyff), but in 1988 it surely wasn't.

Ajax's John van 't Schip and John Bosman played in the opening game (four Ajax players in the line-up), but they dropped out when Holland lost (to the Soviet Union). The rest of the tournament Michels fielded the same starting line-up for each game:

Van Breukelen; Van Aerle, Rijkaard, Ronald Koeman, Van Tiggelen; Vanenburg, Wouters, Mühren, Erwin Koeman; Gullit, Van Basten.

That's only two Ajax boys (Wouters and Mühren) and four PSV players.

Okay: there were a few more players with an Ajax history (Rijkaard, Vanenburg, Van Basten and - to a lesser extent - Ronald Koeman), but on the other hand: the two Ajacieden in the starting team were not from the Ajax youth system, but originally from Utrecht (Wouters) and Volendam (Mühren).

The Euro 1988 Holland team had a pretty distinct PSV flavour to it: Van Breukelen, Van Aerle, Ronald Koeman and Vanenburg were playing for PSV at the time. Van Tiggelen, Erwin Koeman and Ruud Gullit never played for Ajax.

The Dutch team of 1978 that made it to the World Cup final was 50%-50% Ajax/PSV, I would say. Let's not forget that Ajax were already falling apart in 1978, whereas PSV won the UEFA Cup that season. They had a really good side at the time.

K.

[Duke]

Philippe is speaking about 1998, not 1988. :D

[Kowalczyk]

Philippe is speaking about 1998, not 1988. :D

Right... :D

Well, just read my post as some extra background information.

Or something.

K.

[carcajou]

Philippe is speaking about 1998, not 1988. :D

Right... :D

Well, just read my post as some extra background information.

Or something.

K.

Holland played the best football, but didn't have the best team in 98. France was a much better team but was boring as Hell (as usual)

[aveslacker]

Holland wasn't unlucky in '00. They blew it. Didn't they miss two penalties prior to the shootout? That isn't luck. Otherwise, I agree with Ko's statements. When you consider the population of the Netherlands, their record is pretty damn good.

And I would take Holland if they met France in the quarterfinals.

But I still believe that Brazil is far and away the best team in the world this year. Is there any other team in the world that is so stacked with talent that they can afford to put Robinho on the bench?

After that, I would say the Argies, but the gap between nos 1 and 2 is far greater than the gap between 2 and the rest.

[Ayman]

I think if we avoid Brazil until the final itself, we stand a great chance. Hey! imagine this Marco van Basten's Oranje versus Jurgen Klinsmann's Krauts. That would be a mouth watering game. Brazil find it very hard to win the wold cup in europe, so I think they will finish as runners up. As for the Krauts.....well this is not the best german team I have seen over the past 10 to 15 years, so if its a Holland and Brazil final....then my dream will come true and we will all see a dutch man lift the world cup (hopefully it wont be Cocu lol!)


''I looked at the worldaround me through the eyes of Johan Cruijff''

[aveslacker]

I think if we avoid Brazil until the final itself, we stand a great chance. Hey! imagine this Marco van Basten's Oranje versus Jurgen Klinsmann's Krauts. That would be a mouth watering game. Brazil find it very hard to win the wold cup in europe, so I think they will finish as runners up. As for the Krauts.....well this is not the best german team I have seen over the past 10 to 15 years, so if its a Holland and Brazil final....then my dream will come true and we will all see a dutch man lift the world cup (hopefully it wont be Cocu lol!)


''I looked at the worldaround me through the eyes of Johan Cruijff''

IIRC, Brazil is the only country to have won the world cup outside of its home continent, having won in Europe and Asia. And when you consider that the vast majority of the team plays in Europe, the "home continent" advantage is pretty small. The same could be said of Argentina as well.

I agree with you about the Krauts, but the home team typically does pretty well in the world cup, and Germany does seem to do just enough to get to the knock-out phases. But hopefully they will fizzle out -- nothing would be better than to see those diving poofs make an early exit, a la Argentina in 2002.

And as much as I would love to see a Dutchie hoisting the trophy, I think a top four finish for the Oranje should be considered a tremendous success.

[dws]

Philippe is speaking about 1998, not 1988. :D

Right... :D

Well, just read my post as some extra background information.

Or something.

K.

Holland played the best football, but didn't have the best team in 98. France was a much better team but was boring as Hell (as usual)

Holland had the best team in 1998 ... France had the luck.

France 1982 was a beautiful team .... much more deserving of a world cup than those dullards from 98. :yes:

[aveslacker]

Odds from Bet365.

Add Brazil 10/3 Bet
Add Argentina 11/2 Bet
Add Germany 13/2 Bet
Add England 8/1 Bet
Add Italy 10/1 Bet
Add Holland 10/1 Bet
Add France 10/1 Bet
Add Spain 20/1 Bet
Add Portugal 20/1 Bet
Add Ukraine 28/1 Bet
Add Czech Republic 33/1 Bet
Add Sweden 40/1 Bet
Add USA 50/1 Bet
Add Croatia 50/1 Bet
Add Mexico 66/1 Bet
Add Turkey 80/1 Bet
Add Serbia & Montenegro 80/1 Bet
Add Paraguay 100/1 Bet
Add Ivory Coast 100/1 Bet
Add Uruguay 125/1 Bet
Add Switzerland 125/1 Bet
Add Ecuador 150/1 Bet
Add Japan 150/1 Bet
Add Poland 150/1 Bet
Add Ghana 150/1 Bet
Add South Korea 200/1 Bet
Add Slovakia 200/1 Bet
Add Australia 200/1 Bet
Add Norway 200/1 Bet
Add Costa Rica 250/1 Bet
Add Tunisia 250/1 Bet
Add Angola 300/1 Bet
Add Togo 300/1 Bet
Add Saudi Arabia 500/1 Bet
Add Iran 500/1 Bet

Holland and France at 10/1 are good. Turkey at 80/1 is probably good value. Germany at 13/2 and England at 8/1 are losers, imo.

[Frans]

Holland and France at 10/1 are good. Turkey at 80/1 is probably good value. Germany at 13/2 and England at 8/1 are losers, imo.

Turkey still has to get past Switzerland just to get into the tournament. And the Swiss are unbeaten in qualifying so far (from a group containing France and Ireland).

[Frans]

As a general point, does anyone else think Africa should get some more WC places? This year Nigeria, Cameroon and South Africa have missed out (among others), while Trinidad and Bahrain are playing off for a finals ticket. Time for FIFA to re-allot the places I think.

[Venezuelan Ajacied]

My two cents:

This World Cup is going to be a strange one, it's what I call a transition World Cup, the young stars will shine, while the old stars will fade or have one last explosion.That is the reason teams like Togo,Ghana,Ukraine,Serbia and Montenegro have made it to the big dance, their transition has already been done thats why in the case of Ukraine and Serbia(and Turkey if they qualify) missed out of Euro 2004, the Netherlands transition proces started in 2002 that's why the orange missed the world cup and it's the same reason big teams in africa like Nigeria, Cameroon, and Senegal will be missed this time around.France would have missed out for the same reason had Zidane and crew not come'd back.
Big stars who were in full flight in the last world cup will problably play there last international games,Zidane,Figo,Ronaldo,Pauleta,Vieira,Larsson,Del Piero,Roberto Carlos among others will give way to Ronaldinho,Kaka,Robinho,Rooney,Sneijder,Robben,Cristiano Ronaldo,Zlatan and a lot more who will take the reins of their team's for time to come.

Brazil is the obvius favorite, but the wont win the world cup for that same reason, if you take a good look Brazil has never won a world cup while being favorites, they'll be runners up for sure but not champions, Argentina after rebuilding their team will be a strong contender as will be tha krauts and the dutch, italy after a dismmal Euro 2004 should also be in the mix again,though with their traditional boring style,france also has a good chance after almost missing out.
Surprises???? Look for the Aussies if they make it, Ivory coast has a powerhouse ofensive team so look for them in the second round at least,Sweden should also have a good tournament although they will probably fall out once again in the second round( I for one hope they go farther, they deserved a lot more a the Euro's).

Ghana,Japan,Korea and Ecuador are wild cards.

One things for sure....Its going to be an exciting one :xyxthumbs:

All of this shit i've just written can change dramaticaly depending on the Group selections coming december.

Peace

[Venezuelan Ajacied]

As a general point, does anyone else think Africa should get some more WC places? This year Nigeria, Cameroon and South Africa have missed out (among others), while Trinidad and Bahrain are playing off for a finals ticket. Time for FIFA to re-allot the places I think.

Africa has enough places with five direct tickets, but you are right I hate the fucking Concacaf they only have 2 good teams US and Mexico, the rest is average at the most, it really pisses me of.South America should get five direct places and the Concacaf three thats it. Let Australia play the Asian team for the last spot.Their is no way in hell that Trinidad or Bahrein is better than Australia,Uruguay,Colombia,Chile and if i am permited to say...... Venezuela :D .

[DanK]

Odds from Bet365.
Add Sweden 40/1 Bet

Sweden @ 40/1...I'll put a bet on that one. Thats not a bad return.

[Frans]

Odds from Bet365.
Add Sweden 40/1 Bet

Sweden @ 40/1...I'll put a bet on that one. Thats not a bad return.

They actually have to win though. I know Greece beat the odds but can you really see it happening in 2 consecutive big tournaments?

[bryan]

I think everyone agrees that Holland had the best team and played the best football in 1974

I don't, they were one of the two best teams at that World Cup, along with West Germany.

From a historical perspective and for political reasons, the final in 1974 has always been painted as the brilliantly dapper Dutch against the evil Germans. However, if we look purely at the football on offer, the Dutch team of 1974 were indeed brilliant, but people forget that the German team of 1974 was brilliant too. They may not have numbered their jersies alphabetically according to last name, but they too were damn good at Total Football.

The 1974 final was one of those finals where it's a shame that somebody had to lose.

[Per]

Odds from Bet365.
Add Sweden 40/1 Bet

Sweden @ 40/1...I'll put a bet on that one. Thats not a bad return.

Good DanK, wee need believers!

So far there are two of them, Zlatan and DanK who believe Sweden can win it :D .

[jakobg]

They actually have to win though. I know Greece beat the odds but can you really see it happening in 2 consecutive big tournaments?

There's a big difference between Sweden and Greece. Greece won the tournament with their excellent defence, something that used to be Sweden's best quality as well. But Sweden today is a much more attacking team, with players as Larsson, Ljungberg, Wilhelmsson and Zlatan. They want to play offensive football and have the qualities needed to score more goals than their opponent, not just concede less goals.

I'm not saying I think Sweden will win the World Cup, but if all players are fit, I think they can beat any team. Well, almost any team I should say. Brazil will go through the tournament unbeaten.

[Frans]

They actually have to win though. I know Greece beat the odds but can you really see it happening in 2 consecutive big tournaments?

There's a big difference between Sweden and Greece. Greece won the tournament with their excellent defence, something that used to be Sweden's best quality as well. But Sweden today is a much more attacking team, with players as Larsson, Ljungberg, Wilhelmsson and Zlatan. They want to play offensive football and have the qualities needed to score more goals than their opponent, not just concede less goals.

I'm not saying I think Sweden will win the World Cup, but if all players are fit, I think they can beat any team. Well, almost any team I should say. Brazil will go through the tournament unbeaten.

I was more referring to them being rank underdogs, not comparing styles of play, but I take your point, they are are a far better chance on paper than Greece was for Euro.

Anyway, as another general point, Which african side do people think will cause a stir this time around? There always seems to be an african team causing some excitement at the World Cup, and with 4 cup debutants this year there's a good chance for some upsets, I think.

Regardless, the africans are good to watch, as they generally play with a bit of flair, and actually seem to be enjoying themselves, which is not such a common occurrence in professional football nowadays.