'J.C.' - The Omnipresent Oracle

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Kowalczyk
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Bericht door Kowalczyk » vr okt 12, 2007 12:10 pm

I just posted this in the Ajax Coaches thread, but I reckon it's more appropriate over here...
Kowalczyk schreef:Having said the above...
The Purple Cow schreef:Cruijff was one of the top 10 best players of all time, and a reasonably successful coach, but let's not get carried away here.
... I have to disagree on this one.

As a player Johan Cruijff made Ajax and Barcelona huge out of absolutely nowhere in the 1970s. Some fifteen years later he did the same thing for both clubs as a coach, in both cases after a very, very long and bad slump that (at both clubs) pretty much started when he left as a player.

After 14 years of total European misery, Cruijff returned to Ajax and gave them European Cup Winners Cup of 1987, Ajax's first European trophy since 1973.

Then he moved on to Barcelona, his second love. The club couldn't even see Real Madrid from where they were at the time, but under Johan Cruijff they won the European Cup Winners Cup, the Spanish league and, finally, the Champions League. And off Johan went.

A very brief coaching career, but one that definitively made him a saint and a legend in both Amsterdam and Barcelona. He did it as a player, disappeared for fourteen (yup...) years or so, walked back into the door as a coach... and did it again. Magic.

It was, in fact, so magical and unique that Cruijff's sense of responsibility evaporated overnight. His reputation as a player and as a coach was now so mythical that he could only sustain damage in a new job. Ever since, he's been pulling strings at all three of his beloved teams (Ajax, Oranje, Barça) from a distance, in an unofficial, 'outsider' kind of way. He expects the people in charge of 'his' three teams to listen to him and do as he says, but whenever they offer him a real position he always turns them down.

Because of this he will - at the end of the day - end up below a man like Franz Beckenbauer on the list of all-time greats in football: their careers have many similarities (replace 'Ajax and Barça' with 'Bayern München' and 'Oranje' with 'Die Mannschaft'), but unlike Cruijff Beckenbauer has never walked away from his responsibility. He (succesfully) coached Bayern when the club needed him, and became their president. He coached the national team and won the World Cup again. He accepted the role of 'figure head' when Germany hosted the World Cup last summer.

Painful but true: Cruijff was perhaps more of a creative genius as a player, but Beckenbauer is a greater man in football, simply because Cruijff lacks the guts and always walks away (one of the reasons, if you ask me: Beckenbauer is a genuinely intelligent person, whereas Cruijff is 'streetwise' more than anything else).

But in my opinion you can't judge Johan Cruijff, as a coach, on the jobs that he did not accept. The only thing you can blame him for, is the fact that - as a coach - he was like a football player that scores three goals in his first game and another three in his second - and then quits his career, so that he can forever say that he used to net three goals per game on average...
Let's turn this into a proposition...

Ajax have to give it one more try and offer Johan Cruijff am official key position within the club. If he turns it down once again, it is time to close the book, to cut the strings and to start ignoring the man.

Have your say!

K.
Still alive...

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Kowalczyk
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Bericht door Kowalczyk » vr okt 12, 2007 12:11 pm

Interesting proposition. I agree 100%! :drecul.gif:

K.
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aveslacker
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Bericht door aveslacker » vr okt 12, 2007 2:34 pm

Kowalczyk schreef:Interesting proposition. I agree 100%! :drecul.gif:

K.
Agree. I wouldn't mind seeing him coach Ajax again, not that this is going to happen. But if he has no official role with the club, then he should bugger off and be a tv commentator or something.

If he accepts an official role with the club, great. But he won't because he doesn't want to risk ruining his mythical status.
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Jeroen126
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Bericht door Jeroen126 » vr okt 12, 2007 2:37 pm

Well, it looks like Van Wijk is taking over. He's close to Cruijff, so #14 won't lose his influence.

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SE6Ajacied
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Bericht door SE6Ajacied » vr okt 12, 2007 5:44 pm

aveslacker schreef:Afbeelding

:666.gif:
Hey, I've just seen this post. Did you steal my t-shirt? :biggrin.gif: :ajaxsmiley.gif:
Forza Haarlem. HFC Gone but not forgotten!

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Bericht door SE6Ajacied » vr okt 12, 2007 5:50 pm

aveslacker schreef:
Kowalczyk schreef:Interesting proposition. I agree 100%! :drecul.gif:

K.
Agree. I wouldn't mind seeing him coach Ajax again, not that this is going to happen. But if he has no official role with the club, then he should bugger off and be a tv commentator or something.

If he accepts an official role with the club, great. But he won't because he doesn't want to risk ruining his mythical status.
Have to agree with that as well. All due respect to the man for what he's done but no-one be they coach, chairman, director or even office worker in a different occupation is going to want a "back-seat driver" around casting opinions forever.

I'm sure he'll always be welcome at the ArenA, and call him back for presentations and the like but I have to agree with Aveslacker - at least part of the reason for his rejecting a position must be to avoid ruining his semi-godlike reputation - after all you can only go downhill from there.

My opinion for what it's worth.
Forza Haarlem. HFC Gone but not forgotten!

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Bericht door bryan » za okt 13, 2007 11:05 pm

These are they key Cruijff influenced club decisions I can remember off the top of my head:

- Getting Morten Olsen forced out.
- Getting Co Adriaanse forced out.
- Getting Danny Blind appointed.

All three were stupid.

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Bericht door Philippe » ma okt 15, 2007 8:43 am

he did not get HTC appointed, did he ?
Appie, stay strong !

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Bericht door Michael_B » ma okt 15, 2007 9:42 am

bryan schreef:These are they key Cruijff influenced club decisions I can remember off the top of my head:

- Getting Morten Olsen forced out.
- Getting Co Adriaanse forced out.
- Getting Danny Blind appointed.

All three were stupid.
Next one is coming up: Van Basten as our new coach.
Face your fears and live your dreams, No Fear

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Bericht door Manneken Pis » ma okt 15, 2007 10:55 am

De Dominee schreef:Next one is coming up: Van Basten as our new coach.
Yup, after the "beautiful football" he's got Holland playing...
“If I wanted you to understand it, I would have explained it better.”

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Bericht door carcajou » ma okt 15, 2007 12:44 pm

Manneken Pis schreef:
De Dominee schreef:Next one is coming up: Van Basten as our new coach.
Yup, after the "beautiful football" he's got Holland playing...
You have a point :-(
meh :|

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Bericht door Philippe » ma okt 15, 2007 5:26 pm

yes .... but is that why chelsea hired HTC rather than van Basten ? :withstupid.gif:
Appie, stay strong !

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Bericht door Kowalczyk » wo feb 20, 2008 1:05 pm

Welcome home, Johan...

:welcome:

:ajaxscarf.gif:

K.
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Bericht door Manneken Pis » wo feb 20, 2008 3:41 pm

Er ... technically speaking, is this J.C.'s "fourth" coming?

:confused.gif:
“If I wanted you to understand it, I would have explained it better.”

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Bericht door aveslacker » wo feb 20, 2008 4:07 pm

Manneken Pis schreef:Er ... technically speaking, is this J.C.'s "fourth" coming?

:confused.gif:
Truth be told, I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, it is nice to see Cruijff actually put his money where his mouth his and do something instead of just yapping off from the sidelines. Also, it is nice to see Ajax taking action on the Coronel report's recommendations -- they're revamping their structure, putting clear lines of authority in place, and the board is resigning. That's a positive. And Cruijff does have managerial experience, as well as some concept of how to find talent.

On the other hand, it looks like he's going to bring MvB back with him as well. I have my doubts about MvB's ability to coach a team, to be sure. I'm sure Ajax fans will be so overjoyed with this move that they will be willing to put up with defensive football in a 442 formation. No matter what, MvB can't do it any worse than guys like Koeman, Blind or Wouters.

I can see it going either way: the two geniuses (and great Ajax men) combine to restore Ajax to something approaching its former glory, or their oversized egos attack one another and explode, destroying the entire city of Amsterdam, with nothing but a smoldering hole in the ground left behind.
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Bericht door gordonvandekamp » wo feb 20, 2008 4:38 pm

aveslacker schreef:
Manneken Pis schreef:Er ... technically speaking, is this J.C.'s "fourth" coming?

:confused.gif:
Truth be told, I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, it is nice to see Cruijff actually put his money where his mouth his and do something instead of just yapping off from the sidelines. Also, it is nice to see Ajax taking action on the Coronel report's recommendations -- they're revamping their structure, putting clear lines of authority in place, and the board is resigning. That's a positive. And Cruijff does have managerial experience, as well as some concept of how to find talent.

On the other hand, it looks like he's going to bring MvB back with him as well. I have my doubts about MvB's ability to coach a team, to be sure. I'm sure Ajax fans will be so overjoyed with this move that they will be willing to put up with defensive football in a 442 formation. No matter what, MvB can't do it any worse than guys like Koeman, Blind or Wouters.

I can see it going either way: the two geniuses (and great Ajax men) combine to restore Ajax to something approaching its former glory, or their oversized egos attack one another and explode, destroying the entire city of Amsterdam, with nothing but a smoldering hole in the ground left behind.
I feel about the same about it as you do. The one positive I see is that there will be effectively two minds at work behind the scenes (although I'm not totally convinced of van Basten's competency just yet). As long as van Basten and Cruijff can stay on the same page, I think things could be really good again. I hope they both have the dedication that it will take and can work together to succeed.

At the least, I agree that it's a good sign those in charge are actually doing something (if it's the best thing will have to wait to be seen).

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Bericht door SE6Ajacied » wo feb 20, 2008 6:15 pm

The sentimentalist in me is very happy to see Cruijff back "home, and I certainly agree with this

(Quote - Aveslacker) it is nice to see Cruijff actually put his money where his mouth his and do something instead of just yapping off from the sidelines. (end Quote)

Trouble is, I'm fearful of this too

(Quote - Aveslacker) or their oversized egos attack one another and explode, destroying the entire city of Amsterdam, with nothing but a smoldering hole in the ground left behind. (end Quote)

Time will tell and I really hope I'm wrong. One things for sure, though it's not going to be dull around here for a while :headbang.gif:

Someone posted earlier on today about these two being a player magnet. I think that's true too. We're a big name and pay relatively good money so it's never normally getting players who are happy to come to NL to sign for us but hopefully this might persuade a few of the undecided's to come too.

Roll on the next few months, it definately won't be dull.

Edit: Why can't I get the quote buttons to work properly this afternoon....?
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Bericht door Venezuelan Ajacied » wo feb 20, 2008 10:09 pm

We really are rolling the dice a bit here but it really cant get any worse than what it has already been....both MVB and JC are no bullshit type managers...the type we so desperately need....if they can get along...we might be going places....like somebody said in anohe thread, at this point i dont care if we need to play defensive 4-4-2 to nab a win....what i really want is for Ajax to be back up where it belongs...at the top end of europe... lets hope these guys can form some sort of chemestry and make the ball roll in our direction.

Say what you want but JC has demonstrated he can excell as a manager even if its just for a short while.....and MVB has yet to fail a long term goal with the orange...Van Gaal cant say that.ç

In the end i think the only thing we need is a spark....thats all..JC can give us that and much more.
BRING IT ON !!!!...

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Bericht door DanK » wo feb 20, 2008 11:01 pm

I was under the impression that Cruijff and van Basten were best buddies, with the same footballing philosophy.

I remember seeing a Magazine (in Dutch) years ago, maybe back to 1991. I think it was called Cruijff #14 or something like that (released by VI). I don't remember the specifics of the section about JC and van Basten, but there was a huge photo of the two looking pretty chummy and saying how they had the same ideas.

I think they were implying back then that van Basten was Cruijff's protege. Funny that this is actually how it panned out with the national squad and now with either Ajax or Barcelona.

So I am assuming that there wont be too much friction b/w the two of them.

Now if we can just get Bergkamp to be assistant coach I would have my 3 all time favourite Ajacied's managing the team :ajaxsmiley.gif:

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Bericht door bryan » wo feb 20, 2008 11:23 pm

Cruijff is quoted in the Parool newspaper as saying that he doesn't want a position at the club at all, technical or otherwise, but that he just wants to tell everyone how things should be done.

:withstupid.gif:

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Bericht door DanK » wo feb 20, 2008 11:47 pm

bryan schreef:Cruijff is quoted in the Parool newspaper as saying that he doesn't want a position at the club at all, technical or otherwise, but that he just wants to tell everyone how things should be done.

:withstupid.gif:
That sounds more like JC :drecul.gif:

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Re: 'J.C.' - The Omnipresent Oracle

Bericht door Monkey Tonk » do feb 21, 2008 12:45 am

Kowalczyk schreef:
As a coach of Barcelona he was talking to the Spanish press one day (in Spanish, obviously) and he suddenly used the expression en un momento dado, which is a very literal translation of that Dutch expression. It does not exist in Spanish. Everyone was fascinated by it, because it has some sort of a mystical sound to it: it means something like 'at a moment that is given to you'. So, without being aware of it, Cruyff accomplished the exact same thing he always accomplishes in Dutch: he invented a new expression that was actually a linguistic error, but somehow sounded like a kind of 'Higher Truth'. Students and intellectuals immediately adopted the expression and it is now a standard expression in Barcelona. Which is great, as a number of 'Cruyffisms' has also been 'officially' integrated in Dutch. The man's a wizard with words and a poet without even being aware of it.

:worshippy: ;)

K.
The same wizardry and ability to set new standards as on the field.

I don't know how big Cruyff's influence will be this time, but the bigger the better.

Go Johan! The Savior is back. First as player, then as coach, and now as... whatever! I'm a believer. In the Holy Trinity!

:ajaxscarf.gif: :ajaxscarf.gif: :ajaxscarf.gif:

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Bericht door Cedric » do feb 21, 2008 9:20 am

bryan schreef:Cruijff is quoted in the Parool newspaper as saying that he doesn't want a position at the club at all, technical or otherwise, but that he just wants to tell everyone how things should be done.
This is not really surprising when you read that he was only "asked to give shape to the football-technical policy of Ajax". I do think it's only a short term job, or at best, a kind of "technical advisor"....
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Bericht door DanK » do feb 21, 2008 10:08 am

Cedric_AeF schreef:
bryan schreef:Cruijff is quoted in the Parool newspaper as saying that he doesn't want a position at the club at all, technical or otherwise, but that he just wants to tell everyone how things should be done.
This is not really surprising when you read that he was only "asked to give shape to the football-technical policy of Ajax". I do think it's only a short term job, or at best, a kind of "technical advisor"....
From the sounds of it, no matter where van Basten ends up Cruijff is his technical adviser anyway.

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Bericht door The Purple Cow » do feb 21, 2008 6:46 pm

I think people initially over-estimated Cruijff's new roll. At best he's a sort of temporary free-lance management consultant.

Y'know. The type that comes in, tells you what you already know (in a double-spaced report) invoices you for a small fortune, and then fucks off to a beach in Barbados.

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