UEFA decisions affecting Ajax

[Philippe]

we will soon know :
(from "the guardian")
Chelsea yesterday expressed concern at the strength of language employed by Uefa on Monday when charging them with bringing the game into disrepute. The club are worried that it will be difficult for the ruling body's disciplinary department to behave impartially against the backdrop of such fierce condemnation.
"Uefa appear to have come to their conclusions without considering both sides of the argument," a Chelsea source said yesterday. "They have completely jumped the gun, acting as judge and jury. How can we hope to receive a fair hearing?" The worry surfaced as Uefa's director of communications made it plain that expulsion from the Champions League was a real possibility.
"A coin was thrown at the referee Anders Frisk at Roma and the club lost the game 3-0 as a result of the decision of the control and disciplinary body," said William Gaillard.

"That is something where there is an objective responsibility - someone threw a coin but we don't know who. At the same time the charges against Chelsea are most grave because they are not an objective responsibility. This was as part of a conspiracy [of using lies as a pre-match tactic]."

If the control and disciplinary body consider a similar sanction appropriate, Chelsea's position in the quarter-finals would be overturned in favour of Barcelona, since a 3-0 first-leg win would give the Spanish side a 5-4 aggregate victory.

Chelsea's anxiety that Uefa is acting as "judge and jury" has been raised by the composition of the disciplinary panel. The prosecution will be conducted by Uefa's disciplinary inspector Edgar Obertüfer, who wrote the charge against Chelsea in which Jose Mourinho and his staff were accused of having "created a poisoned and negative ambience". His case centres on alleged inconsistencies in Chelsea's report to Uefa over an alleged incident in the tunnel in Barcelona.

Uefa has discharged its most senior disciplinary official, Josep Lluís Vilaseca Guasch, from the hearing because he is a Catalan. Jacques Antenen, chief examining magistrate in the Swiss district of Vaud, is expected to chair the hearing.

Though Antenen is only a minor official within the Swiss football federation, his fellow delegates on a nine-man panel have more prominent positions within their national federations. The Luxem bourger Joël Wolff, Hungary's Sandor Berzi, Denmark's Jim Hansen, the Scot David Taylor and David Bowen of Northern Ireland all work as general secretaries of their federations.

Chelsea's fears over the independence of the remainder of the panel were stoked by their functions beyond disciplinary roles. Berzi, Wolff, Hansen, the Italian Maurizio Laudi and Austria's Thomas Partly are also Uefa match delegates.

Mourinho told a Portuguese television station: "Obviously I and other people involved, mainly the club, which is much more important than we are, have the expectation of complete dismissal [of charges], complete dismissal."

Antenen sought to ease Chelsea fears when contacted yesterday. "There is no interference in the decision-making process of the control and disciplinary body at all from the chief executive of Uefa [Lars-Christer Olsson] or from the executive committee. We act totally independently of Uefa."

If the control and disciplinary body finds against Chelsea, they will then have recourse to an 11-man appeals panel, from which the Football Association councillor Barry Bright would be excluded.

If Chelsea are removed from the Champions League, the club would be permitted to resort to the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne, or perhaps to the civil courts. However, with only six days between next Thursday's hearing and the April 6 quarter- final first leg, even if the CAS were to find in Chelsea's favour, it would seem unlikely that they would have sufficient time to be reinstated in this season's competition.

[Manneken Pis]

I'm sorry phillipe, I'm obviously missing something....how does this affect Ajax? :?

[carcajou]

I'm sorry phillipe, I'm obviously missing something....how does this affect Ajax? :?

Yep, I think this one is all about Chelsea.... Man would I love them out of the Champions League, and the endless whining from Mourinho that would come along.... That would be ..... ORGASMIC !!

[Monkey Tonk]

LOL :D

Better than sex.

[Philippe]

I'm sorry phillipe, I'm obviously missing something....how does this affect Ajax? :?

someone around here is changing posts, and/or moving them, the original title was "does the UEFA have guts?"

is this an internet forum, or the pravda ?

[Frans]

If they were going to award a 3-0 win to Barcelona for the first leg, they would have had to do it before the second game, so Chelsea would know what they have to do to win the tie. Any decision that sees Barca in the next round would be insane. They should beat the shit out of Mourinho, but they can't give Barcelona the win.

[Kowalczyk]

Firstly, I owe you an explanation...

I was in a hurry this morning and did not take the time to actually read the article you posted. I saw the words 'Chelsea' and 'UEFA' and assumed that it was an article about something I read in the Dutch press this morning: Chelsea, Arsenal and AC Milan (three of Europe's richest clubs that were eliminated 'early' in the CL) want to change the rules of the Champions League. They want the pairings for the knock-out rounds to be based on the UEFA ranking of clubs: the highest against the lowest, and so on. The reason why they want this? They feel that the richest and strongest clubs must not be paired with each other as early as in the round of sixteen. They spend so much money on players that it is very important to them to at least make it to the quarter finals...

An absolutely disgusting and scandalous suggestion, of course, which would make it even harder for a club like Ajax (or Porto, or PSV, or Monaco) to compete in the CL. Anyway: I thought the article was about that - and that's why I went for this new thread title.

Turns out that this article is not about Ajax at all and the thread title makes no sense. However: because it is not about Ajax at all, it should have been posted to the General Football Discussion thread:
http://www.ajaxtalk.nl/portal/viewtopic.php?t=4422

Please post your replies about Phillippe's article there.

This thread will continue to serve as the thread for UEFA plans and decisions that affect Ajax (such as the one I described above).

Right - and now for the Pravda remark...

is this an internet forum, or the pravda ?

It is an internet forum. To be precise: an internet forum where we work with threads that are as general as possible, so that we can discuss more than just one specific news fact in them. I've wasted a lot of time time to explain this toe everyone. The whole English-language community over here either agrees that this is the best way to go, or does not have any problems with it. Except... you. And you keep grumbling about it, every once in a while.

If you call me the Pravda (fine with me; the fact that you are free to do so proves that it's bollocks), I in my turn will call you a stubborn non-cooperative obstructionist without a cause, who refuses to obey to a very simple houserule that everyone else has no problem with.

Right: back on topic!

Replies to the new structure for the Champions League as suggested by Chelsea: post 'em here please.

Replies to the article posted by Philippe: in the General Football Discussion thread, s'il vous plaît:
http://www.ajaxtalk.nl/portal/viewtopic.php?t=4422

K.

[carcajou]

Man, those Frenchies, how stubborn !!! Oh wait...... :D

On topic, of course such crap will never be voted. Plus you have to know that Michel Platini is an official candidate for the presidence of the UEFA. He's always been a supporter of the game over money, and he's a real legend of football (even if his ego could easily match Cruyff's of Pele's).

So I think that Chelsea can **** off. We'll be on top of Europe in a few years money or not...

GO AJAX !!

[Philippe]

First rule : never change anything in a text written by someone else
Second rule : never obey to those who break the rules
Third rule : when you make a mistake, as we all do, admit it and keep cool

[carcajou]

First rule : never change anything in a text written by someone else
Second rule : never obey to those who break the rules
Third rule : when you make a mistake, as we all do, admit it and keep cool

Smells like an open flame war now.....

First Ko admitted that he hadn't read your post before changing the title of the thread, but still you posted it in an inappropriate thread, thus breaking the rules first (and this is not the first time). So in the end you're the one who didn't admit your mistake.

I can understand that you all had habits prior to our invasion from our previous forums (sempiternam requiem Soccerpages), but there are now moderators in charge, and I can tell you that they do a really good job. Everybody's fine about that, the number of threads doesn't go through the roof like in all other boards, we don't even see spam (thanks to their endless monitoring), everybody is granted freedom of expression in the limits of what is authorized by common sense, and the reading experience is great because of the "compact" format of the pages.

So my friend, honestly, if you just follow the rules (post where it's due and try not to create redundant threads), we'll have a great experience around here.

And now everybody calms down :cheer: :cheer:

</ The Swiss Diplomat>

[Kowalczyk]

Just let it be, Bertrand.

I've read Philippe's 'rules' a few times and could only conclude that I didn't break any of them (as far as it is possible in the first place to break rules set by someone who doesn't set the rules...), so his post doesn't apply to me. I, myself, made my point very clear.

It's okay. And, more importantly: it's very unimportant.

K.

[Philippe]

Maybe I over reacted, sorry about the Pavda remark.

I still think it's more fun to post new threads, but it's not that bad.

Anyway, your news about the proposition for a new CL format are very worrying. And I would not trust Platini about this, because of his notorious links with Serie A top clubs.

[SPL]

The main team who want the rules changed are Moan U ,who think it is their right to get a bye to the semis at least !

If this scum team had their way the Champions League would only have 8 teams in it. In fact why not just have a competition for english, Italians and Spanish only.

Barcelona , won it once, Inter won it back in the mid 60's, Moan Ure won it twice 30 years apart and having finished 3rd in our league last season should not even have been in it this season, Arsenal, got to the quarters once or twice. Are these clubs worthy of seedings??? They certainly do not have a record of wins like our 4 titles.

PS Moan U did not complain last season when they were beaten by a so called minnow called Porto.


The rich get richer and sod the rest is their idea.

[Over Pasanens Head]

My two-pennies worth is that this competition should still be for the champions of each country. It just devalues the whole thing when you end up with say the 4th placed team in the EPL entering. For gods sake we could have Everton in the competition next year - what a mockery.

[Manneken Pis]

My two-pennies worth is that this competition should still be for the champions of each country. It just devalues the whole thing when you end up with say the 4th placed team in the EPL entering. For gods sake we could have Everton in the competition next year - what a mockery.

But isn't nearly everything in football a mockery these days:

1) Players salaries
2) The power of agents
3) Franchise football (e.g. Wimbledon in England)
4) Blatters re-election given the financial scandal at the time
5) Players' behaviour off the pitch
7) Refs retiring because of threats
8) The levels of game fixing
I could go on for a few hours but the list would get too long...

I sincerely hope the financial bubble bursts (CL viewing figures are way down b.t.w.), and the financial structure collapses. Yep some clubs that are living beyond their means will go bust...but they will be reborn (run by fans and supporters trusts and will need to work their way up their respective lower leagues if the true fan base is there). But then the fiscal parasites that are ruining the game will move onto some other entertainment industry.

[Over Pasanens Head]

Interesting to note that of the 8 teams still in the CL only 2 were their country's champions last year (AC Milan and Lyon).

[Kowalczyk]

Don't want to sound like one of those conservative "everything was better in the old days" type of people, but I still think that the good old structure of 'European' footie was the nicest and most interesting... Champions in the Champions Cup, cup winners in the Cup Winners Cup and numbers two, three and four in the UEFA Cup. The bigger leagues could have two or three UEFA Cup participants and the smaller ones only one - that's fine by me.

To be honest I'm getting very bored with the Champions League (and I also wrote that several times when we were doing well in it ourselves). It's always Italy, Spain, England... It would be so much nicer if you could bump into some of Europe's many beautiful clubs a bit more frequently. Clubs from great cities, with great club history and a long list of honours...

Panathinaikos, Ferençvaros, Benfica, Sporting Lisbon, Brøndby, IFK Göteborg, Anderlecht, Rapid Vienna, Legia Warsaw... Those are truly beautiful, very big clubs and I would love to visit their towns and to play them in the Champions League. Something else. It would be so nice to go to some different places than London, Milan or Madrid, to see some different grounds than Old Trafford, the San Siro or the Olympiastadion... to hear some different player names, see some different jerseys... It would make football so much more adventurous to the fans, the players... to everyone, really.

If Man Utd, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and AC Milan are the ones to eventually make it to the semi-finals...? Fine! No problem with me. If they're the best (and they probably are): good for them! But at least we can have an open draw, so that surprises remain an option. Life is so much easier for those big clubs: bigger countries, bigger leagues, bigger sponsors, bigger TV deals... They're the top of the food chain of football already. They have so many advantages if you compare their positions to that of a club like Ajax. And now they want the rules to be changed, in order to make it even easier for them...? To ensure that they will at least make it to the quarter finals?

Seriously, I think it's criminal. Mourinho is the 'enemy of football' because he's said that the ref is corrupt...? Whatever. The real enemies of football are the folks who even dare to propose changes like this.

I'm not asking UEFA to make it easier for the small clubs, don't get me wrong. We're not asking for a special treatment. I wouldn't even want it. All I'm asking is: why can't we just throw all the particiating clubs into a bowl and draw, for God's sake...? It can never be a good idea to make surprises and upsets impossible. How could anyone ever think that?

K.

[LucaS]

There have been years that the competition in the UEFA-cup was much tougher than in the EC I. If you have only the real champions in the CL, these days might come back...

[Over Pasanens Head]

There have been years that the competition in the UEFA-cup was much tougher than in the EC I. If you have only the real champions in the CL, these days might come back...

Lucas - are you saying that would be a bad thing?

Also what a mockery the CL and UEFA cup has become when if you get knocked out of the CL (by coming 3rd)then you can then enter the UEFA cup.
If you are knocked out of one competition it should be goodbye to European football for another season.

[Manneken Pis]

Also what a mockery the CL and UEFA cup has become when if you get knocked out of the CL (by coming 3rd)then you can then enter the UEFA cup.
If you are knocked out of one competition it should be goodbye to European football for another season.

I think they are changing that from next year (could be mistaken).

Also...it's a little ironic that Ajax was a founder member of the 'G14' who wanted to be a "big boys" pressure group who could force UEFA into getting them more revenue by changing formats and threatening the creation of a super league, and now Ajax actually suffer from such lobbying from the "even bigger boys".

[LucaS]

Lucas - are you saying that would be a bad thing?

Also what a mockery the CL and UEFA cup has become when if you get knocked out of the CL (by coming 3rd)then you can then enter the UEFA cup.
If you are knocked out of one competition it should be goodbye to European football for another season.

It's not neccesarily a bad thing. No, that's not what I mean, it's a little strange though. When the draw is free and you're a little lucky you could get to the final or the semi-final without real tough competition..but I agree with Ko, that's football and surprises make the game worth watching.
And of course you are right. Once beaten you should not get a seccond chance..try again next year. The groupstages are a disaster..it's so much more thrilling when it's just two games in which the decision has to be reached. It's sad that groupes now even reached the UEFA-cup too... :sad:

[SPL]

According to my paper today UEFA have called Moan Ure's plan a Joke and would kill off Tv and interest in Champions League.Here Here.

I agree the competition should be for the league champions only.To have the 4th team inthe EPL and Italian leagues is a joke especially as both countries only have 3 so called big teams each and the rest just make up the numbers.

There is one good thing about Chelski winning in England and that is the prospects of Moan Ure winning the league are finished.

Moan Ure are and always will be the most hated football side in this country.

PS If anyone every thinks Iam jelous of their so called success I just say that I love a team called AJAX, who's record in Europe is vastly superior.

[Over Pasanens Head]

Moan Ure are and always will be the most hated football side in this country.

Not with me - Spurs have been for the last 43 years my No 1 in that league - in fact that is the only league that they will ever be number 1 in :headbang:

[Frans]

I agree the competition should be for the league champions only.To have the 4th team inthe EPL and Italian leagues is a joke especially as both countries only have 3 so called big teams each and the rest just make up the numbers.

And yet the 4th English team made it to the 1/4 finals ahead of 1st and 3rd.

The system as it stands now has another flaw in that teams from the same country can't be drawn in the same group, or for the second round (I think), which is of course a further advantage for the big teams.

[Tom_]

Don't want to sound like one of those conservative "everything was better in the old days" type of people, but I still think that the good old structure of 'European' footie was the nicest and most interesting... Champions in the Champions Cup, cup winners in the Cup Winners Cup and numbers two, three and four in the UEFA Cup. The bigger leagues could have two or three UEFA Cup participants and the smaller ones only one - that's fine by me.

To be honest I'm getting very bored with the Champions League (and I also wrote that several times when we were doing well in it ourselves). It's always Italy, Spain, England... It would be so much nicer if you could bump into some of Europe's many beautiful clubs a bit more frequently. Clubs from great cities, with great club history and a long list of honours...

Panathinaikos, Ferençvaros, Benfica, Sporting Lisbon, Brøndby, IFK Göteborg, Anderlecht, Rapid Vienna, Legia Warsaw... Those are truly beautiful, very big clubs and I would love to visit their towns and to play them in the Champions League. Something else. It would be so nice to go to some different places than London, Milan or Madrid, to see some different grounds than Old Trafford, the San Siro or the Olympiastadion... to hear some different player names, see some different jerseys... It would make football so much more adventurous to the fans, the players... to everyone, really.

If Man Utd, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and AC Milan are the ones to eventually make it to the semi-finals...? Fine! No problem with me. If they're the best (and they probably are): good for them! But at least we can have an open draw, so that surprises remain an option. Life is so much easier for those big clubs: bigger countries, bigger leagues, bigger sponsors, bigger TV deals... They're the top of the food chain of football already. They have so many advantages if you compare their positions to that of a club like Ajax. And now they want the rules to be changed, in order to make it even easier for them...? To ensure that they will at least make it to the quarter finals?

Seriously, I think it's criminal. Mourinho is the 'enemy of football' because he's said that the ref is corrupt...? Whatever. The real enemies of football are the folks who even dare to propose changes like this.

I'm not asking UEFA to make it easier for the small clubs, don't get me wrong. We're not asking for a special treatment. I wouldn't even want it. All I'm asking is: why can't we just throw all the particiating clubs into a bowl and draw, for God's sake...? It can never be a good idea to make surprises and upsets impossible. How could anyone ever think that?

K.

Completely agree, 100%. I'm always complaining about how boring the CL is these days. Not just being conservative, I genuinely think the old format of 16 teams, straight knockout, was far more.

The group stage format is surely designed by UEFA to increase the TV revenue by increasing the number of games per season. Unfortunately it has a "numbing" effect, where there are so many games the season turns into a blur and very few matches are memorable (Frans -- same reason I don't like one day cricket!).