Ajax Trivia

[AsgAarD_xxx]

Thank you.

I asked, because one of websites (I don't remember which one) said that it can be pronounce: ah-jah-side... That's all what I wanted to know :).

[Venezuelan Ajacied]

Man talk about dutch clases.... but i must say it is quite interesting. I being a spanish native speaker have always pronounced the "J" in Ajax like a "Y" but if you ask somebody who does not now about the team they will pronounce the "J" like the English "H" just like you pronounce Juanfran.

By the way how do you say Voetbal ???? Does the "V" sound like the "V" of Venezuela or does it sound like an "F" i have heard some Spanish comentators pronounce the V in Van as it was an f like Fan der Vaart, and last but not least do you pronounce the O and E in a separate way or do you just make one sound of it OE= U ?????.

Hope its not confusing, just got a curiousity itch :D

[SE6Ajacied]

By the way how do you say Voetbal ????

I'm curious on this one too. So far I've not been too bad on Dutch pronuniciation apart from Ajacied where I was hopelessly wrong (I don't think I've ever heard anyone actually say it). Anyway, for me Voetbal has always been Voot-Bul (to rhyme with Put not Shoot and Jethro Tull not Bull).

I'm interested to know if that's right though.

[Arthur]

Your version of 'voetbal' is correct, SE6Ajacied.

The 'v' does indeed sound like Venezuela, not like an 'f'. It would only ever be pronounced an 'f' at the end of a word, but that never happens in Dutch.

[carcajou]

Your version of 'voetbal' is correct, SE6Ajacied.

The 'v' does indeed sound like Venezuela, not like an 'f'. It would only ever be pronounced an 'f' at the end of a word, but that never happens in Dutch.

Errr, the 'v' in Venezuela sounds like a 'b'. Pretty much Benessu[e]la.

So you probably mean the sound of Venezuela in English, right ?

[Kowalczyk]

By the way how do you say Voetbal ???? Does the "V" sound like the "V" of Venezuela or does it sound like an "F"

Interesting one. The letter V in Van der Vaart is pronounced exactly the same way as the V in English (van, voucher, vegetable, variety).

But the Amsterdam accent is sharper and harsher sounding than 'normal' Dutch. People with an Amsterdam accent will pronounce the V as an F and the Z as a sharp S. So indeed: many Amsterdammers pronounce Van der Vaart as Fan dur Fart and when they speak English they will say 'ferry colt' instead of 'very cold'.

The best examples of a thick Amsterdam accent at Ajax, are Gerard van der Lem (coach-assistant) and Nigel de Jong. And of course, old-timers such as Bobby Haarms. Johan Cruyff has a very thick Amsterdam accent as well. People in Holland will recognize it from a hundred miles' distance (Amsterdammers are loud enough for that... :D ).

K.

[Arthur]

Your version of 'voetbal' is correct, SE6Ajacied.

The 'v' does indeed sound like Venezuela, not like an 'f'. It would only ever be pronounced an 'f' at the end of a word, but that never happens in Dutch.

Errr, the 'v' in Venezuela sounds like a 'b'. Pretty much Benessu[e]la.

So you probably mean the sound of Venezuela in English, right ?

Well, this is the English zone, isn't it? :p
But yeah, I mean Venezuela in English.

[SE6Ajacied]

This isn't really Ajax Trivia but it follows on from our discussion on Dutch pronunciation. Something I've been curious about but have never asked anyone - our old "friend" Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink. Please can someone explain that surname. The "of" sounds very English but I assume it's not - my Dutch/English dictionary gives two very obscure looking meanings in Dutch. Also, I've heard him referred to as both "Vennegoor" and "Hesselink", which is correct.

Like I said, very obscure and trivial, just something that bugs me every time I see the name.

[Van der Vaart]

By the way how do you say Voetbal ???? Does the "V" sound like the "V" of Venezuela or does it sound like an "F"

Interesting one. The letter V in Van der Vaart is pronounced exactly the same way as the V in English (van, voucher, vegetable, variety).

But the Amsterdam accent is sharper and harsher sounding than 'normal' Dutch. People with an Amsterdam accent will pronounce the V as an F and the Z as a sharp S. So indeed: many Amsterdammers pronounce Van der Vaart as Fan dur Fart and when they speak English they will say 'ferry colt' instead of 'very cold'.

The best examples of a thick Amsterdam accent at Ajax, are Gerard van der Lem (coach-assistant) and Nigel de Jong. And of course, old-timers such as Bobby Haarms. Johan Cruyff has a very thick Amsterdam accent as well. People in Holland will recognize it from a hundred miles' distance (Amsterdammers are loud enough for that... :D ).

K.

I pronounce Fan dur Fart ,Fan dur Zaar ,ehehhehe...

I dunno if Venezuelan Ajacied knows about portuguese in Brazil ,but is very funny ..They call Ajax like an unpronounciable word in english or dutch...heheheh
it´s very funny

[Van der Vaart]

When you people tell family or friends that you support this Dutch football team named Ajax, how do you pronounce it?

I think it mainly depends of the person we are talking with... I mean : if I discuss of Ajax with a friend using the correct pronunciation, he won't understand me. So I switch the pronunciation in accordance with the nationality of the audience.
But there are some words more difficult than other, and whatever the pronunciation, I'm not understood... :D I can think of FC Groningen for example.

like RRRroninRRUN :D :D

[DanK]

This isn't really Ajax Trivia but it follows on from our discussion on Dutch pronunciation. Something I've been curious about but have never asked anyone - our old "friend" Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink. Please can someone explain that surname. The "of" sounds very English but I assume it's not - my Dutch/English dictionary gives two very obscure looking meanings in Dutch. Also, I've heard him referred to as both "Vennegoor" and "Hesselink", which is correct.

Like I said, very obscure and trivial, just something that bugs me every time I see the name.

From my little understanding of Dutch names i also find this one interesting. How did the 'of' get in between those names?

I always thought in 'true' Dutch it would be Jan Vennegoor van Hesselink (which would more closely translate to Vennegoor from Hesselink.

I would also think his family name (way back when) would have originally been Vennegoor and his family originated from Hesselink.

At least I think thats how it normally works.

Is this one also true?
de boer = The Boer (or the farmer)

[Dubbel]

Toen na de invoering van de Burgerlijke Stand in 1811 iedereen een naam moest kiezen, wist menigeen niet precies hoe hij heette, zodat soms beide namen geregistreerd werden. Daaraan danken we de dubbele namen als Geerding Johannink, Vennegoor of Hesselink, Wissink ook Geerdink. Te Riet ook genaamd Scholten.

http://tesellefamily.com/ned_content/ne ... hfd_03.htm

Roughly translates to:
When the government started to register person records in 1811 everybody had to provide a name. A lot of people didn't know their name exactly and as a result some provided multiple names. To that we owe names like Geerding Johannink, Vennegoor of Hesselink, Wissink ook Geerdink. Te Riet ook genaamd Scholten

So the 'of' in his name is actually an English 'or'. And the cause is that Jan's predecessors were so stupid that they could not figure out their own name when promted to supply it. I'm not surprised.

And yes, 'De Boer' is the farmer.

And a 'Stekelenburg' is something like a fortress with sharp pointy sticks. Doesn't sound bad for a goalie, eh?

[SE6Ajacied]

Thanks DanK and Dubbel. I would have thought that it was a stray "of" that should have been a "van" as well though I like Dubbel's explanation as well, I think I've met/heard of quite a lot of Dutch people now and V of H is the only time I've seen this.

[Dubbel]

Perhaps you can help me with this one. What is a Ham? Ham as in Tottenham, Nottingham, West Ham etc. Often wondered but never dared to ask...

[aveslacker]

West Ham, Birmingham, Tottenham, Pressed Ham. What are these things? :eusa_pray:

[SE6Ajacied]

Perhaps you can help me with this one. What is a Ham? Ham as in Tottenham, Nottingham, West Ham etc. Often wondered but never dared to ask...

My "Guide to British Place Names" (indespensible ;) ) gives two explanations for the ******ham. The first is that the "ham" is related to the modern word home, but the book states that it can also be related to the modern word hem, (ie. enclosure, such as land surrounded by water or a marsh, or land in a valley surrounded by higher land. It's often not that obvious which explanation is valid for any particular place.

Surprisingly, the ham is not associated with the word hamlet (meaning small villiage/settlememt).

According to my book, Tottenham comes from "Totta's Homestead" - Totta being the name of a person. The name 'Nottingham' actually means "settlement of Snot's people", the original S being lost when the Normans found it difficult to pronounce the 'S' and the 'N' together (as every English schoolboy and girl knows, the Normans invaded in 1066).

So we can blame the French (Normans) ;) that Nottingham is not now called "Snottingham" (probably just as well)

[Dubbel]

Thanks. If I ever get this one for my one million dollar question I'll owe you one. :xyxthumbs:

[Frans]

How do you explain 'Hamilton'?

[AsgAarD_xxx]

Dirk Kuyt had 'Kuijt' on his shirt a few years ago. If 'y' = 'ij' in Dutch so I have a question: is it possible to write 'Sneyder'? And what's the difference between 'y' and 'ij' (if any)?

[carcajou]

So we can blame the French (Normans) ;) that Nottingham is not now called "Snottingham" (probably just as well)

Normans are everything but French though.... They invaded us before like badass vikings they were.

[Arthur]

The official names use 'ij' (Sneijder, Kuijt, Cruijff), but since the pronounciation of 'ij' and 'y' are the same they are sometimes substituted to make it easier to read for foreigners.
I'm not familiar with any rules regarding 'ij' and 'y', but since these are names, they are not really bound by rules anyway. They're just what they've been since some ancestors chose them.

[SE6Ajacied]

Thanks. If I ever get this one for my one million dollar question I'll owe you one. :xyxthumbs:

"There are two theories to account for this name. One takes it to be a local name, from Old English hamel, 'maimed', 'broken' (as in Hemel Hempstead) and either dun, 'hill' or tun, 'farmstead', 'settlement' so that it is 'settlement in broken country'. The other says that the name was brought here by English people in the twelfth century from the now lost villiage of Hamilton in Leicestershire, itself recorded as Hameltun in that century. The former explanation is the simpler, but the latter origin, though a rare instance of early name transfer is still possible"

Why do you ask?

[Dubbel]

Why do you ask?

Wasn't me, SE6Ajacied. Let's ask Frans when he returns. ;)

How do you explain 'Hamilton'?

[raymon]

The official names use 'ij' (Sneijder, Kuijt, Cruijff), but since the pronounciation of 'ij' and 'y' are the same they are sometimes substituted to make it easier to read for foreigners.
I'm not familiar with any rules regarding 'ij' and 'y', but since these are names, they are not really bound by rules anyway. They're just what they've been since some ancestors chose them.

Not entirely true (I believe). The 'y' is called a 'Greek y' and only used in particular occasions, like my name for instance :yes: The prenounciation of the Greek y seems the same as ij, but changes in combination with other letters. For instance, ay is prenounced as ee, while aij is just a lot of rubbish :D

Again, I'm not sure if this is the official difference between the two, but this is what I've been told.

[Dubbel]

More about his important issue:

The Dutch alphabet (equally for the Netherlands and Belgium; there is only one standard language and one alphabet) has 26 letters. The last three are x, y, z. In many Dutch primary schools they are taught as x ij z, and the y, when spelling, is called "Griekse y" (= "Greek y"), but pronounced "Griekse ei", or just "ij". Also "i-grec", which is a French loan. This may be because the example IJsbeer is easy to understand for six-year-olds, but words that start with a Y are invariably difficult and learned.

In print ÿ and ij look very different, and ij and ij are practically the same, but in the handwriting of most Dutch speakers ÿ and ij are identical, but an ij can be distinguished from the combination of i and j. In case of the capital letter IJ this is even more true.

Those who say ij is a letter want it between x and z, but never manage to agree what to do with the y then. That letter is also needed, because it is used as a variable in mathematics, and for spelling words of Greek origin, such as "systeem". Some say there should be 27 letters, but don't know whether it's x y ij z or x ij y z. Some want to change the existing spelling and abolish the y altogether. But there is no official support for those suggestions.

Although dictionaries, at least since 1850, invariably sort ij between ih and ik, some encyclopaedias, and all telephone directories in the Netherlands (not in Belgium!), sort ij and y together; not one after the other, but together as if they are the same, intermixed. This is practical, because many surnames have non-standard spellings; so now Thijssen and Thyssen appear together, and you can find them without having to know the exact spelling. It also helps find names of Frisian origin, such as Sijbrandij and Sybrandy.
Even with this special sorting order, De Bruijn and De Bruyn are together, but De Bruin is not. In dictionary order, De Bruijn and De Bruin would be close, but not De Bruyn.

Personally, I think the best solution is to treat ij as a combination of i and j, just like oe, ei, eu and many others are combinations with a special meaning. Then the capitalisation of words beginning with IJ (in names, or at the start of a sentence) is an exception, a special case. So is the incorrect, but practical sorting of telephone directories.
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/nlij_en.htm