The Official World Cup 2010 Thread

[paladinby]

For 36 years there has been a myth about the beautiful game played by the Oranje, sadly that died tonight with a bunch of thugs attempting to play. Sorry but de Jong and the chief thug V Bommel
both should have had reds.

If Ajax , god forbid played like that, I am sure the supporters would burn the Arena down !!

I am not saying Spain were great but they did try to play.A horrible game of football and not worthy of a world final .

Sad to say, but I agree with this. De Jong is easily my least favorite ex-Ajacied and should have been sent off. Webb was pretty bad, but the teams were too cynical for such an event, and Holland was, sadly, the more cynical of the two teams.

I'm here to disagree. Spain never tried to play any kind of attractive football in playoffs. They tried to employ ball control tactics (which is really boring to watch) relying on short passes (Hello Barca) in midfield and individual skill, diving, referee talking in front. They scored 4 goals in 4 play-off games. Nothing really attractive in these numbers.

As for Dutch - i worried about strikers before the tournament. Still Nistelrooy was probably an option and could be useful after having good time in Hamburg. I think with this crop of players Van Maarwijk did great. It's very hard to build a team without any worthy strikers who are onform. Just look at other teams who reached the semis - most of the goals are scored by attackers.

A good joke from FIFA in the end - Spain gets Fair Play award. That was very fair from spanish player to hit Van Bommel from behind right after diving, simulating. And sure the spaniard didn't even get a yellow for that.

[bryan]

Well they certainly couldn't give the Fair Play award to the Dutch lumberjack team, now could they.

I thought the US played the most sportingly at this tournament.

I see Forlan got the Golden Ball. He was my favourite player from the very start. Very skilled, very patient, very unselfish and very sporting. An exemplary player in every way.

[Purple Cow's Ghost]

Jeeze Paladinby, you are completely delusional mate.

**

Nice summation of what is being callled the worst World Cup final in history.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog ... land-spain

[Orange14]

Nice summation of what is being callled the worst World Cup final in history.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog ... land-spain

An alternative view of this (and one critical of the BBC commentators) can be found here: http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/ ... icle/9188/ I find this much more realistic.

[ajaxusa]

I thought the US played the most sportingly at this tournament.

I see Forlan got the Golden Ball. He was my favourite player from the very start. Very skilled, very patient, very unselfish and very sporting. An exemplary player in every way.

Agreed on both points, Bryan.

But there was a nice (if strange) moment yesterday, when Holland tried to play the ball back to Spain and almost put it in the net. (Saint Iker can stick his hard-man stares up his ass.) Van Persie played the corner kick to the keeper. A small moment, but a nice moment.

My son asked me: "If that ball had gone in the goal, would Holland have let Spain score a goal?" Great question. I don't know!

[ozzerdibazio]

Purple Cow's Ghost - I am afraid it is you who is delusional.

Kudos to paladinby for an honest assesment.

Who gives a flying fuck if Mark v.Bommel kicks the shit out of Andres Iniesta? I hope next time Nigel De Jong kicks Xavi's head off.

Why is it that you would rather peddle this assumed myth of loosing beautifully than actually winning something. Every post on this board should be singing Holland's praises. I don't understand this losers mentality. Your country, or the country we all appreciate because of its relationship to Ajax, assuming that is why we are on this board, reached the World Cup Final. They scored more goals than Spain. They beat Brazil courtesy of a brilliant second half display. They made a petulent and predictable Spain side fight harder than they had all tournament.

A Spain side that was mediocre at best. And just because Alan Hansen and the rest of the fairy godmothers who you watch on your screen say the opposite, doesn't make it true. And SPL - all this 'total football in decline' talk is bullshit. What did you expect to happen? Edson Braafheid to play left wing and score a hat-trick whilst Arjen Robben danced around David Villa - wearing an orange wig with v.Marwijk jotting down how many Cruyff turns he has performed - at left back and Joris Matthijsen shrugging his shoulders as Spain romp home 6-3. What bliss that would have been. Get in the real world.

I for one hope Holland go and kick their way to the Euro 2012 final and heabutt their way to the 2014 World Cup final.

[ajaxusa]

Purple Cow's Ghost - I am afraid it is you who is delusional.

Any post that begins this way is bound to be problematic...

This discussion forum is one of the few places where the conversation never (?) descends into grandstanding and polemics. We try to keep it civil. Please make a note of it, everyone.

[jamcocteau]

Purple Cow's Ghost - I am afraid it is you who is delusional.

Kudos to paladinby for an honest assesment.

Who gives a flying fuck if Mark v.Bommel kicks the shit out of Andres Iniesta? I hope next time Nigel De Jong kicks Xavi's head off.

Why is it that you would rather peddle this assumed myth of loosing beautifully than actually winning something. Every post on this board should be singing Holland's praises. I don't understand this losers mentality. Your country, or the country we all appreciate because of its relationship to Ajax, assuming that is why we are on this board, reached the World Cup Final. They scored more goals than Spain. They beat Brazil courtesy of a brilliant second half display. They made a petulent and predictable Spain side fight harder than they had all tournament.

A Spain side that was mediocre at best. And just because Alan Hansen and the rest of the fairy godmothers who you watch on your screen say the opposite, doesn't make it true. And SPL - all this 'total football in decline' talk is bullshit. What did you expect to happen? Edson Braafheid to play left wing and score a hat-trick whilst Arjen Robben danced around David Villa - wearing an orange wig with v.Marwijk jotting down how many Cruyff turns he has performed - at left back and Joris Matthijsen shrugging his shoulders as Spain romp home 6-3. What bliss that would have been. Get in the real world.

I for one hope Holland go and kick their way to the Euro 2012 final and heabutt their way to the 2014 World Cup final.

Jeez what an utterly pathetic post - well hope next time you are on a football pitch someone does to you what you are suggesting De Jong should do to Xavi's head.

[GangstaRiB]

I'm rather surprised that the English media is so hard on De Jong and Van Bommel for their rough play. If there is one competition where 'legbreak' tackles are not booked, it's the Premier League. And I thought that if there's one nation who love to see fysical play, it would be England.

[ajaxusa]

I'm rather surprised that the English media is so hard on De Jong and Van Bommel for their rough play.

I thought that tackle was out of character for De Jong. It was a straight red-card offense, if ever there was one. I suspect he instantly regretted and was deeply relieved to be let off with just a yellow. Van Bommel, OTOH, brings a completely cynical approach to the game *until* he gets his first yellow, and only *then* do we see that he really is a very good player. He got away with murder (by a thousand small cuts) in this tournament. What a waste of talent...

[aveslacker]

I'm rather surprised that the English media is so hard on De Jong and Van Bommel for their rough play.

I thought that tackle was out of character for De Jong. It was a straight red-card offense, if ever there was one. I suspect he instantly regretted and was deeply relieved to be let off with just a yellow. Van Bommel, OTOH, brings a completely cynical approach to the game *until* he gets his first yellow, and only *then* do we see that he really is a very good player. He got away with murder (by a thousand small cuts) in this tournament. What a waste of talent...

It was entirely in character for De Jong. He's been playing like that for a while now. Maybe he wasn't like that with Ajax, but he has been a hard man since he started with Man City. Remember that he broke Stuart Holden's leg in a friendly.

I can't say I'm pleased with Holland at all, but I had to suppress belly laughs when Graeme Souness, commenting on Al Jazeera, started slagging them off. That was a bit rich.

[SPL]

Just to point out I did use the word Myth of the Oranje and beautiful football and no I do not expect total football in this era.

Had Holland won on penalties we would all have said bit lucky not good football but who cares and we would not be making comments . Sadly Holland lost but played ugly .

Come 2014 I will still cheer on the Netherlands as the team will still have players from the Ajax academy
as always and I want them to win that WC.

[Orange14]

I'm rather surprised that the English media is so hard on De Jong and Van Bommel for their rough play.

I thought that tackle was out of character for De Jong. It was a straight red-card offense, if ever there was one. I suspect he instantly regretted and was deeply relieved to be let off with just a yellow. Van Bommel, OTOH, brings a completely cynical approach to the game *until* he gets his first yellow, and only *then* do we see that he really is a very good player. He got away with murder (by a thousand small cuts) in this tournament. What a waste of talent...

It was entirely in character for De Jong. He's been playing like that for a while now. Maybe he wasn't like that with Ajax, but he has been a hard man since he started with Man City. Remember that he broke Stuart Holden's leg in a friendly.

I can't say I'm pleased with Holland at all, but I had to suppress belly laughs when Graeme Souness, commenting on Al Jazeera, started slagging them off. That was a bit rich.

van Bommel has been doing the innocent choir routine for a number of years now and it's gotten to the stage of embarrassment. de Jong is a tough nosed player and usually comes in with hard tackles but not of the variety seen yesterday (remember sainted Edgar Davids was equally hard nosed both for club and country). The earlier quote about the English media slagging this performance is quite accurate. They should be the last one to castigate anyone given the rough house play their domestic league allows. It's clear that van Marwijk's plan about how to disrupt the Spanish game was the right one. It would have been preferable that it were executed with less recklessness in the midfield. Alas, it is all history now and we will move on from this (personally, my first WC was back in 1966 so I've experienced each of the previous Dutch heart breakers (my father was at two of the matches in 1974 with his cousin and spoke wonderfully about the experience). Life goes on and as I noted on another forum our NT was just "one brick shy of a load." (for those not in the know this was the title of a book about an professional American football team the Pittsburgh Steelers when they just came up short).

[Tom_]

I'm stuck somewhere in the middle of this. Didn't particularly enjoy the way the Netherlands played at the tournament but I still wanted them to win. I don't think Spain played attractive football at all throughout the tournament, and they certainly made a few dodgy tackles themselves in the final. Both teams were diving and complaining to the ref the entire game.

What I wonder is why the media have made such a big deal of this non-issue. In Australia, the world cup was broadcast on SBS which is a semi-commercial station (with its roots in public access) known for its dedication to football. Their coverage of the final was absolutely disgraceful even before the match had kicked off. Spain were the representatives of the beautiful game, Netherlands were sent by Satan to destroy football!!!

What's caused this bias? Is it a reaction to the way Italy won the last world cup? Any thoughts?

[paladinby]

Nice summation of what is being callled the worst World Cup final in history.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog ... land-spain

This article makes no sense at all.

They call it the worst World Cup final but why? Antifootball by both teams? Come on, you can play defensive, counter-attacking football and still be attractive. This Dutch NT nad nothing to do with antifootball. They were ugly, dirty, not very creative but still allowed some moments of beauty, scored some nice goals and conceded too during the whole tournament.

If this article is going to be fair they should call this Spain team the most boring Champion ever. It is Spain who plays antifootball. They scored 7 goals in 6 games before the final game while conceding 2. Even Italy scored more and looked better in 2006. So it's very logical that there were no goals scored before extra-time. Their anaconda-like style is just antifootball at it's peak. Spain controls the ball and slowly asphyxiates it's victim. Poor Germany never had a chance against these bunch of divers. Why don't they recall that in semis Ramos should have given a red card for doing on Podolski the same thing as did Ribery in CL. Simply supporting myth about good boys from Spain and butchers from Netherlands? Oh yeah, these Spaniards know how to control a referee and beg for a card. They make it a little blah-blah show after every call no matter who fouled or how hard the foul was. It's very fun that the two players who got cards for talking to ref are Mathijsen and Robben. They must ask Spanish about how to abuse officials all the game and still get on with it.

The article says about straight red card for De Jong, But why only him? Why not red card Iniesta for hitting Van Bommel from behind? I see, Van Bommel didn't fall down like being chopped. Poor Mark needs some guide on diving. Why not give Iniesta a yellow for diving in that very episode? Seeing no reaction from referee on his screams and yellings Iniesta got up very fast for a Spaniard only to act like a true sportsman. Why not call a delayed penalty on Puyol for his professional foul on Robben while having a yellow? Referee did the same against Chile when played Spain in group after diving by Torres. Ha-ha, but you can call it against Chile not against Spain.

Robben was stupid to continue his run trying to score as he lost his speed after that contact. He should have falled down just like that Spanish actor when Heitinga was red-carded. That's how to win a game and that was a difference in a final.

Van Bommel and De Jong. They both deserve a Butcher of the tournament award (or the Lumberjack if you like it). But hey, defensive midfielders often play dirty and commit many fouls. Davids and Gattuso are examples. Vieira was never a school girl also. But their dirtiness is straight and fair, it has some kind of vile honor.

Summarizing - speaking about antifootball they should speak about Spain, their ugly play style which is based on not allowing to score by controlling the ball all the time. Scoring 8 goals in 7 games is antifootball. Twente-style WC champion (results only are mentioned here). At the same time they are also anti-sportsmen. There's no sportsmanship at all in their play-style.

As fot the Dutch - the higher you get the harder is the fall. I never liked the way they played. But let's look at at the attacking line. Elia, Robben and Van Persie were recovering from different injuries. VdV, Huntelaar, Babel are the benchwarmers at their clubs. This only leaves the coach with Sneijder and Kuyt. Not really much to choose from. Dutch were left without real number 9 who is a key in their play-style. Van Persie looked always well as a winger at national team. It's a great result for them with such amount of problems.

[rjf1]

...What's caused this bias? Is it a reaction to the way Italy won the last world cup? Any thoughts?

It's because Holland is known for aesthetics above all -- playing the way they played was totally out of character and far beyond what the world expected from Dutch football -- the huge disappointment and disillusionment as a result, caused the major reaction. If Holland were known for thuggery -- like Italy, for example -- then the way they played would have been expected and would not have resulted in such a major reaction.

Although I'm not Dutch, I have supported Holland since 1966, when my Dutch high school teammate invited me to play for an amateur team in NY called the Holland Sporting club. 90% of the team were expats from Holland and the Dutch West Indies and we played the Dutch style of football. I have supported Holland -- win or lose -- over these long 40 years, partially for nostalgia, mostly for the way they played the football style that I had learned and loved.

Sad to say, I was totally disappointed by the Dutch tactics over the course of this tournament, but I still kept rooting for them -- except that by the end of the first half I was so disgusted by what they were doing that I couldn't care less if they lost the game. IMO if you have to resort to those kind of tactics to win a football match just go and be a shoemaker -- you don't deserve to walk out on the field.

[SPL]

rjf's first para above gets to the point . Holland is known for its beautiful football , and no I am not talking about total football . The team of Ajax and Holland in the early 70's were footballing gods from another planet the way they played the game.

The reason why the engish press are going over board with their criticism of Holland is thet they turned up and played like Italy . I hate everything about the ugly crude cheating football that comes out of that country but Holland played like an Italian side. Thats why the english press are having a go.

The biggest mystery of the WC is how V Bommel finished any game . As for the referee well he should have sent off de Jong and V Bommel in the first half and Puyol for the attempted tackle on Robben . As for Iniesta's kick on V Bommel well you could say that if the referee was doing his job properly VB would not have been on the field .

The game was anti football and both sides were quilty.We all have different views but I think that was a very poor advertisement of how football should be played.

[GangstaRiB]

rjf's first para above gets to the point . Holland is known for its beautiful football , and no I am not talking about total football . The team of Ajax and Holland in the early 70's were footballing gods from another planet the way they played the game.

The reason why the engish press are going over board with their criticism of Holland is thet they turned up and played like Italy . I hate everything about the ugly crude cheating football that comes out of that country but Holland played like an Italian side. Thats why the english press are having a go.

The biggest mystery of the WC is how V Bommel finished any game . As for the referee well he should have sent off de Jong and V Bommel in the first half and Puyol for the attempted tackle on Robben . As for Iniesta's kick on V Bommel well you could say that if the referee was doing his job properly VB would not have been on the field .

The game was anti football and both sides were quilty.We all have different views but I think that was a very poor advertisement of how football should be played.

Totally agree with you on the mistery of Van Bommel... he is playing like this for his active carreer, but no referee is doing anything against it....

I (personal opinion) also agree on the fact that Holland lost a lot of credit during this tournament. A lot of South-Americans are still remembering the Naranja Mechanica (don't know the spelling) and total football under Michels and Cruijff. Also a lot of people still know Ajax in the 70's and 90's. The current Holland squad is nothing special. I'd rather see Bergkamp scoring the goal against Argentina, than seeing De Jong doing Karate Kid against Spain.

[LucaS]

The problem is not the number of good Dutch players, the problem is the coach.

[bryan]

Is it only the coach? They played similarily violently in 2006 as well. They kicked the Ivory Coast off the pitch and deliberatly injured Ronaldo against Portugal, causing that match to descend into a horror show. Indeed, Sunday's final had the second highest number of yellow cards in the history of the World Cup, second only to that match in 2006. So the Dutch now have the unique honour of having being involved in the two most indisciplined matches in World Cup history. Those two matches had different coaches, but both had Mark van Bommel. Like it or not, the Dutch team have now gained a reputation in world football for being dirty and cynical. It's all over the world's press.

But there was a nice (if strange) moment yesterday, when Holland tried to play the ball back to Spain and almost put it in the net. (Saint Iker can stick his hard-man stares up his ass.) Van Persie played the corner kick to the keeper. A small moment, but a nice moment.

They had to do that. However, later on when they had to give the ball back after an injury, instead of kicking it over the goal line for a goal kick, they kicked it, from the Dutch half, into the Spanish corner, giving Spain a throw-in right next to their own corner flag. This is a very dirty tactic and put Spain in a difficult position from which the Netherlands fashioned a goal chance.

[Orange14]

This will be my last comment on the WC (I need to start getting excited about our upcoming CL campaign!). The yellow card number is a little misleading. There were two (Gio and van der Wiel) that were not fouls at all and it was mistifying that they were carded at all. Robben and Mathijsen got cards for dissent. van Persie's was deserved as it was a result of two clumsy tackles early in the match and Heitinga's foul was really not malicious at all but one of those things that happens. When you subtract things, there are really only a few yellow cards in the end. As I noted previously a lot of the world's anger focused on the team was for van Bommel and de Jong and their behavior. After the karate kick de Jong settled down (this clearly does not excuse what he did) and really didn't get into trouble any more (in fact I think he played a good match after that and one wonders why he has these lapses and makes such flagrant challenges).

I don't think van Marwijk is at fault for any of this other than he knows the type of player van Bommel is (and of course he is his father in law as well). If he is really courageous (and we will have to see) he will quietly drop van Bommel from the selection for the Euro qualifiers and use de Zeeuw or Affelay (my preference) here. One of the things that was missing and I think why we were not as potent on offense was the lack of link up and reluctance to move forward on the part of the two deep lying midfielders. A 4-2-3-1 can quickly morph into the classic 4-3-3 as was shown by Germany on a number of occasions when Schweinsteiger and Khedira moved into attack.

I'm optimistic about the future of the NT as we have some great young players moving through the system both in Holland and at some of the bigger foreign clubs. Now it's time to focus on Ajax and see what will happen in the transfer market. I'm getting more optimistic about Suarez staying as it looks like the only clubs who have money to spend are going after strikers not named Luis (except for the Brazilian Luis who looks like he might move to Tottenham from Sevilla). Forza Ajax

[Philippe]

The final was played by Holland the feyenuts way. Very sad for Ajax fans who supported Oranje with the hope they would play the Ajax way .... JC's words (ugly, vulgar, hard, hermetic, hardly eye-catching, hardly football style) were cruel but adequate.