'J.C.' - The Omnipresent Oracle

[acab]

it's crystal clear for anybody, we can't compare to Real, Barca, Man Utd and 4-5 other clubs from Italy, Germany and England. We aren't going to win the CL any time sooner, but we can still be successful in Europe and Holland. But not under VDB or other like him. Which other club with ambitions sell his biggest star in the middle of the season?
In the summer we could take more money for him. But anyway, i don't see a point to repeat constantly same ol' song

[Monkey Tonk]

The main reason Ajax could compete in the 70s and 90s was because the club had financial clout similar to other big clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd. Ajax was the major club in the Netherlands and could regularly sellout the Olympic Stadium for European matches. Gate receipts were the major form of income for the clubs in Europe at the time and all the teams with large followings were on more or less equal financial footing (except for clubs with sugar daddies, like Real with Franco and Milan with Berlusconi). This is also why Celtic used to be a major force in Europe, they had a huge following and made a killing off of gate receipts. It ain't called the old firm for nothing.

It was when big TV money came in that the clubs in England, Spain, Italy and Germany started to disconnect from the rest.

Simon Kuper in "Why England Lose" talks about three stages in European dominance:
1) When totalitarian states ran football (political power=influence leagues/transfers) 1950-60s
2) When ambitious secondary cities ran football (local pride=good gates/budgets) in the 1970-00s
3) Now hyper rich people (living in big capital cities) have started running football (unlimited budgets="dream teams")

Actually, it's amazing how few large capital cities have won the European Cup/CL since the dictators left the building.

Yes, that topic is discussed in Soccernomics.

I would add that the time of fascism (1) is today largely replaced by corporate fascism (3). And I'm not sure which I would prefer, or prefer less. Needless to say, my favored soccer era was from 1970 to 2000.

[Orange14]

I would add that the time of fascism (1) is today largely replaced by corporate fascism (3). And I'm not sure which I would prefer, or prefer less. Needless to say, my favored soccer era was from 1970 to 2000.

I find this statement rather curious given that over 90% of western companies are publicly owned. If the shareholders don't like the management they can vote them out. That strikes me as rather un-fascism. I think you need to be more careful with your words (you note I don't include any Russian company in this category).

[Manneken Pis]

I would add that the time of fascism (1) is today largely replaced by corporate fascism (3). And I'm not sure which I would prefer, or prefer less. Needless to say, my favored soccer era was from 1970 to 2000.

I find this statement rather curious given that over 90% of western companies are publicly owned. If the shareholders don't like the management they can vote them out. That strikes me as rather un-fascism. I think you need to be more careful with your words (you note I don't include any Russian company in this category).

Hmm ... I don't think the Man City owners can be "voted out", nor the venture capitalists from across the Atlantic that own several major teams in England. In Spain (the big two) there are elections but by fans, so they vote for the bloke with the biggest election promises, not the ones that are fiscally responsible.

[acab]

I would add that the time of fascism (1) is today largely replaced by corporate fascism (3). And I'm not sure which I would prefer, or prefer less. Needless to say, my favored soccer era was from 1970 to 2000.

I find this statement rather curious given that over 90% of western companies are publicly owned. If the shareholders don't like the management they can vote them out. That strikes me as rather un-fascism. I think you need to be more careful with your words (you note I don't include any Russian company in this category).

You mean clubs or companies?

[Philippe]

I understand that Oranje14 thinks a world ruled by big companies is democratic, because shareholders can vote.

[rjf1]

...I find this statement rather curious given that over 90% of western companies are publicly owned. If the shareholders don't like the management they can vote them out...

You gotta be kidding. That has to rank with the all time most naive statements I've ever read.

[Orange14]

...I find this statement rather curious given that over 90% of western companies are publicly owned. If the shareholders don't like the management they can vote them out...

You gotta be kidding. That has to rank with the all time most naive statements I've ever read.

In what way? Over the past three weeks I have cast votes for Boards of Directors of 12 companies that I have investments in. I voted against the incumbent CEO in two of those elections. Moreover, shareholders have won significantly increased rights in the governance of many companies but that is here in the US. Perhaps in your part of the world things are quite a bit different; I'm only judging from my on experience.

[Dubbel]

The main reason Ajax could compete in the 70s and 90s was because the club had financial clout similar to other big clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd. Ajax was the major club in the Netherlands and could regularly sellout the Olympic Stadium for European matches. Gate receipts were the major form of income for the clubs in Europe at the time and all the teams with large followings were on more or less equal financial footing (except for clubs with sugar daddies, like Real with Franco and Milan with Berlusconi). This is also why Celtic used to be a major force in Europe, they had a huge following and made a killing off of gate receipts. It ain't called the old firm for nothing.

I don't buy it. Dutch clubs could not compete financially with the big clubs abroad (mostly Southern Europe) in the 50's, 70's, 90's or any other era. Those clubs had much higher revenue to start with and the tax structure was such that a Dollar made in Holland was taxed 60% while in Spain maybe 10%. Since late in the 80's Eredivisie players can put part of their wages in a low tax pension fund but it's still an unfair situation. Of course now with CL revenue and TV money the differences have increased. A lot. So we shouldn't even try to compete financially but invest in our Academy so it attracts better players and ultimately keep good players longer. I think the Portuguese and Ukrainian clubs are prime examples of clubs that are having success by clinging to their own identities and proving one can still beat the 3 top football countries in Europe. Our identity is clear; certain style and focus on young player development. Hence most fans' enthusiasm over the JC initiative that would have Ajax (re-)embrace that identity.

[acab]

...I find this statement rather curious given that over 90% of western companies are publicly owned. If the shareholders don't like the management they can vote them out...

You gotta be kidding. That has to rank with the all time most naive statements I've ever read.

In what way? Over the past three weeks I have cast votes for Boards of Directors of 12 companies that I have investments in. I voted against the incumbent CEO in two of those elections. Moreover, shareholders have won significantly increased rights in the governance of many companies but that is here in the US. Perhaps in your part of the world things are quite a bit different; I'm only judging from my on experience.

Wow, you have investments in 12 companies?? I see whats the case...

[bryan]

The main reason Ajax could compete in the 70s and 90s was because the club had financial clout similar to other big clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd. Ajax was the major club in the Netherlands and could regularly sellout the Olympic Stadium for European matches. Gate receipts were the major form of income for the clubs in Europe at the time and all the teams with large followings were on more or less equal financial footing (except for clubs with sugar daddies, like Real with Franco and Milan with Berlusconi). This is also why Celtic used to be a major force in Europe, they had a huge following and made a killing off of gate receipts. It ain't called the old firm for nothing.

I don't buy it. Dutch clubs could not compete financially with the big clubs abroad (mostly Southern Europe) in the 50's, 70's, 90's or any other era. Those clubs had much higher revenue to start with and the tax structure was such that a Dollar made in Holland was taxed 60% while in Spain maybe 10%. Since late in the 80's Eredivisie players can put part of their wages in a low tax pension fund but it's still an unfair situation. Of course now with CL revenue and TV money the differences have increased. A lot. So we shouldn't even try to compete financially but invest in our Academy so it attracts better players and ultimately keep good players longer. I think the Portuguese and Ukrainian clubs are prime examples of clubs that are having success by clinging to their own identities and proving one can still beat the 3 top football countries in Europe. Our identity is clear; certain style and focus on young player development. Hence most fans' enthusiasm over the JC initiative that would have Ajax (re-)embrace that identity.

Shakhtar Donetsk are owned by an oil baron and Dinamo Kiev, well, we beat them so they must be even worse than us.

[Orange14]

The main reason Ajax could compete in the 70s and 90s was because the club had financial clout similar to other big clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd. Ajax was the major club in the Netherlands and could regularly sellout the Olympic Stadium for European matches. Gate receipts were the major form of income for the clubs in Europe at the time and all the teams with large followings were on more or less equal financial footing (except for clubs with sugar daddies, like Real with Franco and Milan with Berlusconi). This is also why Celtic used to be a major force in Europe, they had a huge following and made a killing off of gate receipts. It ain't called the old firm for nothing.

I don't buy it. Dutch clubs could not compete financially with the big clubs abroad (mostly Southern Europe) in the 50's, 70's, 90's or any other era. Those clubs had much higher revenue to start with and the tax structure was such that a Dollar made in Holland was taxed 60% while in Spain maybe 10%. Since late in the 80's Eredivisie players can put part of their wages in a low tax pension fund but it's still an unfair situation. Of course now with CL revenue and TV money the differences have increased. A lot. So we shouldn't even try to compete financially but invest in our Academy so it attracts better players and ultimately keep good players longer. I think the Portuguese and Ukrainian clubs are prime examples of clubs that are having success by clinging to their own identities and proving one can still beat the 3 top football countries in Europe. Our identity is clear; certain style and focus on young player development. Hence most fans' enthusiasm over the JC initiative that would have Ajax (re-)embrace that identity.

Shakhtar Donetsk are owned by an oil baron and Dinamo Kiev, well, we beat them so they must be even worse than us.

If you look at a number of top Euro teams, they are owned by individuals with a lot of money. The sole exception in England is Arsenal but who knows how much longer that will last as there are constant stories of a potential wealthy buyer moving in. Italian teams, same story and if the owners don't have money the teams flounder (witness what has gone on with Roma over the last couple of years with their up and down performance). German clubs are different and Spain is a special case with the huge TV money that Madrid and Barca receive. The other constant here is how many of these clubs run negative balance sheets when one looks at the normal accounting. Without the benefactor (or in the case of Madrid and Barca occasional bank loans that would never be given to a 'normal' business enterprise), these clubs would be bankrupt. You see in England business failures of mid table and lower division clubs but the FA there will never take action against ManU who have racked up big deficits.

It's a weird situation right now and we will have to see if M. Platini's regulations end up having any impact at all.

[Jojo]

Ajax board wants to terminate contracts of Dennis Bergkamp, Wim Jonk, Ruben Jongkind en Bryan Roy ?! wtf!! Hope i got it wrong since i don't speak dutch

http://www.nu.nl/sport/2488159/van-boog ... dwars.html

[orange goblin]

apparently, it's not exactly like this.
there are 4 contracts expiring, among the others bergkamp and jonk's ones, and by now there are no rumours of extension until the cruijff vs board affairs is not sorted out.
I find it normal. Don't think the 4 are being fired, also ajax.nl seems to say so.

[acab]

Hahhahaha, it's not wrong. But seems like mr. VDB is playng with the semantics...

[Kowalczyk]

Has this been posted already...?

Blog on FourFourTwo: 'Will Cruyff's velvet revolution at Ajax end in glory or in turmoil?'

K.

[bryan]

Interesting piece. Regarding the last line of it, how much credit do the Barca fans really give Cruijff for getting to where they are now?

Obviously they did well under him as coach, but he did have a lot of money at his disposal, in fairness.

[Orange14]

Interesting piece. Regarding the last line of it, how much credit do the Barca fans really give Cruijff for getting to where they are now?

Obviously they did well under him as coach, but he did have a lot of money at his disposal, in fairness.

I don't think the current general director of the club is his best friend. As I recall he was upset that as an "honorary" president he was not invited to some function or another. Typical Johan move, just going out in the Barcelona paper complaining about this. I don't think the club of today has anything to do with what Cruyff did two decades ago.

[Dubbel]

Seems to me that 'the fans have spoken' at today's home game! Only questions now are when does VDB leave (right after bonus day?) and who will succeed him (Cruijff Academy alumni?).

[Orange14]

Please don't even think about bringing van Gaal back now that he has been axed by Bayern. We don't need this kind of melodrama.

[souras84]

and what's this? http://www.goal.com/en/news/462/netherl ... sory-board

[acab]

http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1441/Ajax/articl ... oden.dhtml

Come on Uri, convince everybody that you are a total asshole!!

[bryan]

I'm not Jewish so I don't see the point about shouting about being Jewish. It feels a bit weird.

However, in that article Coronel says that Ajax fans should stop shouting it so that supporters of other clubs won't have an excuse to use it in a negative, disgusting way.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

[Philippe]

Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

Exactly. He's out of his mind.

[#14]

For those that "geen Nederlands spreken":
http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... oden.dhtml