'J.C.' - The Omnipresent Oracle

[Cedric]

It could get worse??? I guess we could go from being #3 to being #7 but would that matter much? Had you grown up with Ajax you'd know the last decade has been the darkest Ajax era ever. Yet we have people here saying that many things are going right... Not. Having to purchase 90% of our star players is not good. Qualifying for CL once in 5 years is not good. Playing a 442 or 352 isn't either etc etc.

Nor is populism.
But I hope Cruyff will have complete freedom for his masterplan, so he won't have any excuses. And if it's work, that's great.

[rjf1]

the board is only interested in showcasing them and selling them off as fast as possible

This is not true...

That is 100% true -- there was an entire article about it roughly a year ago (I cited a reference to that article at the time) where they actually stated that it was their policy.

[Cedric]

That surely explains why they didn't sold Suarez earlier and prefered to lose a third of the annual turnover last season. Do I need to speak about Emanuelson?

[ofey]

But I hope Cruyff will have complete freedom for his masterplan, so he won't have any excuses. And if it's work, that's great.

I totally concur with this. We're at a bottom of a pit now. I see nothing that the board has done in the last 5 years to return the club to playing winning football nor improve the youth talent coming through.

Perhaps, some of you might point to the improvement of our financial situation but this improvement was funded by large signings sold for bigger sums and only a handful of youth talent.

However, don't forget that this is AFC Ajax. First and foremost we are a football club. If we don't play attractive football nor produce young, attractive talent, we will lose both ways.

He's never had a real go at this. Give him a fair go... . Then we can either say, he was always the messiah OR we can then ignore him as the mad man screaming at the sun... .

[Philippe]

the board is only interested in showcasing them and selling them off as fast as possible

Well said. Let's move on.

[acab]

Bryan,
i honestly don't understand your logic. just 1 example -are FC PORTO a selling club? HELL YEAH, they sell even more players than us. Are they still capable of winning in Liga Sagres and Europe? HELL YEAH!! They play constantly in CL, and when they don't like this year, they have a hell of a march in Eurpa League - semi final or final. Are they fans dreaming of winning of tropfies? YEAH!!! So what? They become more money from TV rights? NO! The portuguese league is stronger than Eredivisie? NO! How than they have a success and we don't? Can you expalin this? I can. They have a good, thinking men in the Bord, we don't!
And another thing - you support VDBand Cruijff - no. But tell me, was Cruijf's desicion not to offer a contract to Pantelic and Rommedahl. No. It was Bord's decision.
PSV and Twente accepted mediocrity? Accepted they will never win in Europe??? WTF do you mean? PSV played a sami-final in CL just some years ago, and Milan won undeservedly. Now they are in the 1/4-finals in EL. We are not? I just don't see your point. I don't care if we are second or sevent, i want we to be FIRTS!!!!

[souras84]

Bryan,
i honestly don't understand your logic. just 1 example -are FC PORTO a selling club? HELL YEAH, they sell even more players than us. Are they still capable of winning in Liga Sagres and Europe? HELL YEAH!! They play constantly in CL, and when they don't like this year, they have a hell of a march in Eurpa League - semi final or final. Are they fans dreaming of winning of tropfies? YEAH!!! So what? They become more money from TV rights? NO! The portuguese league is stronger than Eredivisie? NO! How than they have a success and we don't? Can you expalin this? I can. They have a good, thinking men in the Bord, we don't!
And another thing - you support VDBand Cruijff - no. But tell me, was Cruijf's desicion not to offer a contract to Pantelic and Rommedahl. No. It was Bord's decision.
PSV and Twente accepted mediocrity? Accepted they will never win in Europe??? WTF do you mean? PSV played a sami-final in CL just some years ago, and Milan won undeservedly. Now they are in the 1/4-finals in EL. We are not? I just don't see your point. I don't care if we are second or sevent, i want we to be FIRTS!!!!

well said... porto is a fine example

[bryan]

Porto aren't obsessed with always playing 4-3-3 with no players over the age of 25.

[bryan]

the board is only interested in showcasing them and selling them off as fast as possible

This is not true...

That is 100% true -- there was an entire article about it roughly a year ago (I cited a reference to that article at the time) where they actually stated that it was their policy.

It is their policy to sell a player a year before his contract expires. This is a very sensible policy. Unless you want to bankrupt the club.

[bryan]

PSV played a sami-final in CL just some years ago, and Milan won undeservedly.

That was in 2005, a full six seasons ago.

They aren't going to be playing in the semi-finals any time soon again.

Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man Utd. Three of these four will reach the semi-finals every year for the rest of eternity as long as the current TV money stays the way it is. Every now and then you might get a Schalke 04, Bayern or Inter in the mix. The Champions League is really boring now...

[Orange14]

PSV played a sami-final in CL just some years ago, and Milan won undeservedly.

That was in 2005, a full six seasons ago.

They aren't going to be playing in the semi-finals any time soon again.

Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man Utd. Three of these four will reach the semi-finals every year for the rest of eternity as long as the current TV money stays the way it is. Every now and then you might get a Schalke 04, Bayern or Inter in the mix. The Champions League is really boring now...

I have to agree with you on this. Look at the matches this week, only ManU/Chelsea was a close match. Schalke/Inter was a shocking result but the other two matches were predictable routs. What is really amazing is how bad Italian football is becoming. Other than big derby matches, you see stadiums that are quite empty on match days and poor quality of football. Pretty amazing.

[Orange14]

Bryan,
i honestly don't understand your logic. just 1 example -are FC PORTO a selling club? HELL YEAH, they sell even more players than us. Are they still capable of winning in Liga Sagres and Europe? HELL YEAH!! They play constantly in CL, and when they don't like this year, they have a hell of a march in Eurpa League - semi final or final. Are they fans dreaming of winning of tropfies? YEAH!!! So what? They become more money from TV rights? NO! The portuguese league is stronger than Eredivisie? NO! How than they have a success and we don't? Can you expalin this? I can. They have a good, thinking men in the Bord, we don't!
And another thing - you support VDBand Cruijff - no. But tell me, was Cruijf's desicion not to offer a contract to Pantelic and Rommedahl. No. It was Bord's decision.
PSV and Twente accepted mediocrity? Accepted they will never win in Europe??? WTF do you mean? PSV played a sami-final in CL just some years ago, and Milan won undeservedly. Now they are in the 1/4-finals in EL. We are not? I just don't see your point. I don't care if we are second or sevent, i want we to be FIRTS!!!!

Portugal is 2/3 the size of The Netherlands in terms of population (10m vs. 15m) and produces the same number of quality football players (one could argue on a per capita basis they do a better job but I'm not going there). This means that the teams will have slightly better home grown talent per team than an Eredivisie club (simple math that you cannot argue with). The big difference is that they a direct link to South America that they have nurtured over the years and get good young talent on the cheap that way (current roster shows Brazil - 6, Argentina - 3, Uruguay - 3 with only 7 native players). This is a different model than the one Ajax has followed. Do you want Ajax to emulate that model? That to me is a critical question that needs to be answered since I don't think that the Porto/Ajax comparison is valid.

[rjf1]

...there was an entire article about it roughly a year ago (I cited a reference to that article at the time) where they actually stated that it was their policy.

It is their policy to sell a player a year before his contract expires. This is a very sensible policy. Unless you want to bankrupt the club.

Read the article before you start typing whatever suits your thinking. Their *stated* policy was to use the academy as a tool to develop the players, and the first team as a showcase, so that they could sell them off as quickly as possible for as much as possible. This was not about balancing the books -- it was about sacrificing Ajax as a football club in order to maximize profit. It was stated outright in that article. It was exactly why I have been advocating the removal of the board for long before Cruiff came out with his list of changes. Take Cruiff out of it -- it seems to me that your dislike of Cruiff is causing you to defend a board whose policies are totally indefensible.

[LucaS]

And why did they buy Sulejmani (or anybody for that matter) if 'their' goal only is to maximize profit?

[Orange14]

In line with what has been posted, there is an interesting story on SoccerNet about the reprise of the Benfica/PSV match in the UEL today: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/st ... ll?cc=5901 Well worth reading given the financial implications of today's football versus what it was back in the late 1980s.

[acab]

Bryan,
i honestly don't understand your logic. just 1 example -are FC PORTO a selling club? HELL YEAH, they sell even more players than us. Are they still capable of winning in Liga Sagres and Europe? HELL YEAH!! They play constantly in CL, and when they don't like this year, they have a hell of a march in Eurpa League - semi final or final. Are they fans dreaming of winning of tropfies? YEAH!!! So what? They become more money from TV rights? NO! The portuguese league is stronger than Eredivisie? NO! How than they have a success and we don't? Can you expalin this? I can. They have a good, thinking men in the Bord, we don't!
And another thing - you support VDBand Cruijff - no. But tell me, was Cruijf's desicion not to offer a contract to Pantelic and Rommedahl. No. It was Bord's decision.
PSV and Twente accepted mediocrity? Accepted they will never win in Europe??? WTF do you mean? PSV played a sami-final in CL just some years ago, and Milan won undeservedly. Now they are in the 1/4-finals in EL. We are not? I just don't see your point. I don't care if we are second or sevent, i want we to be FIRTS!!!!

Portugal is 2/3 the size of The Netherlands in terms of population (10m vs. 15m) and produces the same number of quality football players (one could argue on a per capita basis they do a better job but I'm not going there). This means that the teams will have slightly better home grown talent per team than an Eredivisie club (simple math that you cannot argue with). The big difference is that they a direct link to South America that they have nurtured over the years and get good young talent on the cheap that way (current roster shows Brazil - 6, Argentina - 3, Uruguay - 3 with only 7 native players). This is a different model than the one Ajax has followed. Do you want Ajax to emulate that model? That to me is a critical question that needs to be answered since I don't think that the Porto/Ajax comparison is valid.

Offcorse i can argue! It's simply not true! In todays globаlizated world this historical connections means nothing in football. I bet there are thousands of south american kids, who would like to come to Ajax, just becouse of club's reputation. It's not about historical conencions, it's all about SCOUTING! Or you comfortably forget about Romario and Ronaldo - 2 of the biggest brazilian stars ever? Farfan? Suarez? Just with our name, and NOT with money, we could atract some of the best soutamerikan talents. But we don't do it. i wanna know why and i wanna see taht change.

[Orange14]

Bryan,
i honestly don't understand your logic. just 1 example -are FC PORTO a selling club? HELL YEAH, they sell even more players than us. Are they still capable of winning in Liga Sagres and Europe? HELL YEAH!! They play constantly in CL, and when they don't like this year, they have a hell of a march in Eurpa League - semi final or final. Are they fans dreaming of winning of tropfies? YEAH!!! So what? They become more money from TV rights? NO! The portuguese league is stronger than Eredivisie? NO! How than they have a success and we don't? Can you expalin this? I can. They have a good, thinking men in the Bord, we don't!
And another thing - you support VDBand Cruijff - no. But tell me, was Cruijf's desicion not to offer a contract to Pantelic and Rommedahl. No. It was Bord's decision.
PSV and Twente accepted mediocrity? Accepted they will never win in Europe??? WTF do you mean? PSV played a sami-final in CL just some years ago, and Milan won undeservedly. Now they are in the 1/4-finals in EL. We are not? I just don't see your point. I don't care if we are second or sevent, i want we to be FIRTS!!!!

Portugal is 2/3 the size of The Netherlands in terms of population (10m vs. 15m) and produces the same number of quality football players (one could argue on a per capita basis they do a better job but I'm not going there). This means that the teams will have slightly better home grown talent per team than an Eredivisie club (simple math that you cannot argue with). The big difference is that they a direct link to South America that they have nurtured over the years and get good young talent on the cheap that way (current roster shows Brazil - 6, Argentina - 3, Uruguay - 3 with only 7 native players). This is a different model than the one Ajax has followed. Do you want Ajax to emulate that model? That to me is a critical question that needs to be answered since I don't think that the Porto/Ajax comparison is valid.

Offcorse i can argue! It's simply not true! In todays globаlizated world this historical connections means nothing in football. I bet there are thousands of south american kids, who would like to come to Ajax, just becouse of club's reputation. It's not about historical conencions, it's all about SCOUTING! Or you comfortably forget about Romario and Ronaldo - 2 of the biggest brazilian stars ever? Farfan? Suarez? Just with our name, and NOT with money, we could atract some of the best soutamerikan talents. But we don't do it. i wanna know why and i wanna see taht change.

Romario and Ronaldo were a century ago in football terms. My only point is do you want a team that is over 50% non-Dutch born and trained through the academy? I'm not saying that this is a good or bad model; just that it is different. Of course the Eredivisie has South American players and will likely have them in the future. My point is that players will always be more comfortable in Portugal or Spain. It was interesting watching the Barca/Shaktar CL match yesterday where Shaktar had five Brazilian players on the field at one point in time. We can go down this route but it will require a different approach to team building.

[acab]

Portugal is 2/3 the size of The Netherlands in terms of population (10m vs. 15m) and produces the same number of quality football players (one could argue on a per capita basis they do a better job but I'm not going there). This means that the teams will have slightly better home grown talent per team than an Eredivisie club (simple math that you cannot argue with). The big difference is that they a direct link to South America that they have nurtured over the years and get good young talent on the cheap that way (current roster shows Brazil - 6, Argentina - 3, Uruguay - 3 with only 7 native players). This is a different model than the one Ajax has followed. Do you want Ajax to emulate that model? That to me is a critical question that needs to be answered since I don't think that the Porto/Ajax comparison is valid.[/quote]
Offcorse i can argue! It's simply not true! In todays globаlizated world this historical connections means nothing in football. I bet there are thousands of south american kids, who would like to come to Ajax, just becouse of club's reputation. It's not about historical conencions, it's all about SCOUTING! Or you comfortably forget about Romario and Ronaldo - 2 of the biggest brazilian stars ever? Farfan? Suarez? Just with our name, and NOT with money, we could atract some of the best soutamerikan talents. But we don't do it. i wanna know why and i wanna see taht change.[/quote]
Romario and Ronaldo were a century ago in football terms. My only point is do you want a team that is over 50% non-Dutch born and trained through the academy? I'm not saying that this is a good or bad model; just that it is different. Of course the Eredivisie has South American players and will likely have them in the future. My point is that players will always be more comfortable in Portugal or Spain. It was interesting watching the Barca/Shaktar CL match yesterday where Shaktar had five Brazilian players on the field at one point in time. We can go down this route but it will require a different approach to team building.[/quote]
Well, the team now is anyway 50% non-dutch. And if you ask me, there are only two approaches of building a team - wrong and correct. Our's is wrong so far. You can't win just with kids from the academy. The 70's are in the past. i don't divide payers of beeing dutch, brazilian or from surinam. i divide them of beeing good or bad

[bryan]

Ajax never won with only kids from the academy, not in the 70s and not in the 90s. This is all a big myth. In 1971 the captain was a Serbian import and the first goal was scored by a guy we bought from Twente. Neeskens was signed form Heemstede when he was 19, Rijnders was signed from NAC, Muhren from Volendam and Stuy from Telstar. And a lot of those were hard bastards too, who'd get booed off the pitch by the current Ajax fans for being too violent, haha.

The main reason Ajax could compete in the 70s and 90s was because the club had financial clout similar to other big clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd. Ajax was the major club in the Netherlands and could regularly sellout the Olympic Stadium for European matches. Gate receipts were the major form of income for the clubs in Europe at the time and all the teams with large followings were on more or less equal financial footing (except for clubs with sugar daddies, like Real with Franco and Milan with Berlusconi). This is also why Celtic used to be a major force in Europe, they had a huge following and made a killing off of gate receipts. It ain't called the old firm for nothing.

It was when big TV money came in that the clubs in England, Spain, Italy and Germany started to disconnect from the rest.

[acab]

Something very appropriatefor the Ajax case http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdjtqu3XK4U

[Manneken Pis]

The main reason Ajax could compete in the 70s and 90s was because the club had financial clout similar to other big clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd. Ajax was the major club in the Netherlands and could regularly sellout the Olympic Stadium for European matches. Gate receipts were the major form of income for the clubs in Europe at the time and all the teams with large followings were on more or less equal financial footing (except for clubs with sugar daddies, like Real with Franco and Milan with Berlusconi). This is also why Celtic used to be a major force in Europe, they had a huge following and made a killing off of gate receipts. It ain't called the old firm for nothing.

It was when big TV money came in that the clubs in England, Spain, Italy and Germany started to disconnect from the rest.

Simon Kuper in "Why England Lose" talks about three stages in European dominance:
1) When totalitarian states ran football (political power=influence leagues/transfers) 1950-60s
2) When ambitious secondary cities ran football (local pride=good gates/budgets) in the 1970-00s
3) Now hyper rich people (living in big capital cities) have started running football (unlimited budgets="dream teams")

Actually, it's amazing how few large capital cities have won the European Cup/CL since the dictators left the building.

[acab]

The main reason Ajax could compete in the 70s and 90s was because the club had financial clout similar to other big clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd. Ajax was the major club in the Netherlands and could regularly sellout the Olympic Stadium for European matches. Gate receipts were the major form of income for the clubs in Europe at the time and all the teams with large followings were on more or less equal financial footing (except for clubs with sugar daddies, like Real with Franco and Milan with Berlusconi). This is also why Celtic used to be a major force in Europe, they had a huge following and made a killing off of gate receipts. It ain't called the old firm for nothing.

It was when big TV money came in that the clubs in England, Spain, Italy and Germany started to disconnect from the rest.

Simon Kuper in "Why England Lose" talks about three stages in European dominance:
1) When totalitarian states ran football (political power=influence leagues/transfers) 1950-60s
2) When ambitious secondary cities ran football (local pride=good gates/budgets) in the 1970-00s
3) Now hyper rich people (living in big capital cities) have started running football (unlimited budgets="dream teams")

What "totalitarian states"??? Soryy, but mr. Simon can kiss my a...

[Manneken Pis]

The main reason Ajax could compete in the 70s and 90s was because the club had financial clout similar to other big clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd. Ajax was the major club in the Netherlands and could regularly sellout the Olympic Stadium for European matches. Gate receipts were the major form of income for the clubs in Europe at the time and all the teams with large followings were on more or less equal financial footing (except for clubs with sugar daddies, like Real with Franco and Milan with Berlusconi). This is also why Celtic used to be a major force in Europe, they had a huge following and made a killing off of gate receipts. It ain't called the old firm for nothing.

It was when big TV money came in that the clubs in England, Spain, Italy and Germany started to disconnect from the rest.

Simon Kuper in "Why England Lose" talks about three stages in European dominance:
1) When totalitarian states ran football (political power=influence leagues/transfers) 1950-60s
2) When ambitious secondary cities ran football (local pride=good gates/budgets) in the 1970-00s
3) Now hyper rich people (living in big capital cities) have started running football (unlimited budgets="dream teams")

What "totalitarian states"??? Soryy, but mr. Simon can kiss my a...

He means Spain and Portugal, neither of which were democracies when real and benfica dominated European football...

[acab]

Ah, ok i accept it then :)

[Orange14]

Ajax never won with only kids from the academy, not in the 70s and not in the 90s. This is all a big myth. In 1971 the captain was a Serbian import and the first goal was scored by a guy we bought from Twente. Neeskens was signed form Heemstede when he was 19, Rijnders was signed from NAC, Muhren from Volendam and Stuy from Telstar. And a lot of those were hard bastards too, who'd get booed off the pitch by the current Ajax fans for being too violent, haha.

When I was in country on my fellowship in the late 1970s I was at an Ajax/Feyenoord match in Amsterdam and saw one of the most crunching tackles I've ever seen by Ruud Krol. No question those teams had a bit of steel that today's does not. My only point was that bringing in more transfers is a different model than what Ajax have traditionally done. I wasn't saying it was right or wrong, just different.

The main reason Ajax could compete in the 70s and 90s was because the club had financial clout similar to other big clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd. Ajax was the major club in the Netherlands and could regularly sellout the Olympic Stadium for European matches. Gate receipts were the major form of income for the clubs in Europe at the time and all the teams with large followings were on more or less equal financial footing (except for clubs with sugar daddies, like Real with Franco and Milan with Berlusconi). This is also why Celtic used to be a major force in Europe, they had a huge following and made a killing off of gate receipts. It ain't called the old firm for nothing.

It was when big TV money came in that the clubs in England, Spain, Italy and Germany started to disconnect from the rest.

I don't think German clubs get much money from television as the other leagues and Spain is a unique case since Barca and Madrid get the vast majority of the funds which has led to threats of a strike by other teams. Italy has just moved to equal sharing of money for all clubs. I agree with your overall premise that TV money has made the big difference. It's also why CL qualifying can be so important to a club's bottom line, particularly those that don't have other significant sources of revenue. The Swiss Ramble had a good piece on Fiorentina the other day. I was surprised to find out that they were the most profitable club in Italy for the 2009-10 season (and only four clubs turned a profit; none of the big three). It was a result of CL football.