2005-2006: Ajax Formation & Starting Eleven

[343]

Boukhari and Escudé are second rate, yes. Rosales is decent player.


The AJAX-system evolved. (a little). We played it for decades, so your point is well....pointless

We have Sneijder, Stekelenburg, Heitinga, Babel, Maduro, De Jong, Emanuelson, Stekelenburg, Vermaelen
Boakye made his debut today...

We are not a buying club. All our european victories were with 70 or 80 percent AJAX-youthplayers.....

Can you follow what Im saying?????

[Kowalczyk]

Boukhari and Escudé are second rate, yes. Rosales is decent player.

Correction: Boukhari is not Ajax material, but Rosales and Escudé are pretty damn' good footballers.

K.

[343]

Yeah, Escudé is a pretty damn' good footballer. But not for AJAX! Just like Gasselich. He's way too slow to defend with space in his back and he is too chicken to set up an attack. Maduro is the man for that spot.

[bryan]

I seem to remember Ajax winning a European Cup in 1995 with some slow ass central defenders.

Maduro isn't tactically aware enough yet to play in central defense. He would be Johnny Heitinga Mk II. Sure, Heitinga could run fast, tackle and head the ball, but if you don't know where to stand then what use is it? It's only very rarely that a young defender is tactically adept (Chivu).

Ajax really should have bought an experienced centre-back during the summer.

[343]

I seem to remember Ajax winning a European Cup in 1995 with some slow ass central defenders.

Yeah, and you seem to forget that Blind and Rijkaard are tactical superior to Escudé. And they were ruthless defenders when you compare them with sissy Escudé. And they weren't that slow. Even De Boer is faster than Escudé.

[bryan]

We are not a buying club. All our european victories were with 70 or 80 percent AJAX-youthplayers.....

Can you follow what Im saying?????

Unfortunately the Hilversum media has romanticised and rewritten the Ajax history into something that it is not. This has been one of the major problems of the last decade, that many Ajax supporters (including myself) and managers sometimes believe it too. We forget that we bought some good players in the past, and that they were rough bastards too. (something the current crop of players could learn a lot from) Of the starting eleven against Panathinaikos in 1971, seven players were not from the Ajax youth:

Heinz Stuy
Velibor Vasovic
Johan Neeskens
Dick van Dijk
Barry Hulshoff
Nico Rijnders
Gerrie Muhren

Only 36% were Ajax youth players. (Suurbier, Keizer, Cruijff and Sjakie)

The key to Ajax's success was blending the best of the youth system with an excellent scouting system. The 1971 defense and midfield was physically overpowering (almost to a point of pure violence) when it needed to be, and it was the skill that was the extra icing on the cake that made the difference. Unfortunately nowadays Ajax has forgotten how to be physical when it needs to be (it's not the Ajax way apparently - Jack van Gelder and the NOS told us so) meaning that the likes of Club Brugge can run us off the pitch.

[343]

Don't tell me what to think. I am not brainwashable!
Hulshoff is from the youth-program of AJAX! Krol had an injury, so normally there were 6 players from the whomb of the club; Cruijff, Hulshoff, Keizer, Krol, Suurbier and Swart....

I am also referring to the 80's and 90's!
Menzo, Silooy, Rijkaard, Winter, Bosman, Van 't Schip, Van Basten, Witschge,

Menzo, Silooy, Vink, F. de Boer, Winter, Bergkamp, Kreek, Van 't Schip, Roy

Van der Sar, Reiziger, Rijkaard, F. de Boer, R. de Boer, Davids, Kluivert...

So, yeah......All our european victories were with 70 or 80 percent AJAX-youthplayers.....

[bryan]

It says on the Ajax site that Hulshoff was bought from Zeeburgia when he was 19. Zeeburgia - less than a kilometre from De Meer. Close, but no cigar.

Ruud Krol was bought when he was 18.

[343]

It says on the Ajax site that Hulshoff was bought from Zeeburgia when he was 19. Zeeburgia - less than a kilometre from De Meer. Close, but no cigar.

Ruud Krol was bought when he was 18.

Sure, but they are youthplayers in my book. Young and like wax in the hands of the AJAX-coach. Don't forget Hulshoff played his first match in 1966 and wasn't an instant success.

And so what? They were all Dutch and knew how to play in the AJAX-system.
And don't forget the 80's and 90's..... :yes:

[bryan]

I don't know if I could count those players as Ajax youth players. By that logic Arjen Robben is a product of the Chelsea youth system.

[343]

Sure, bryan. Keep nagging about that and don't look at the big picture!
They weren't the players they became. Not by al long shot....
Zeeburgia and Rood Wit A were big clubs in those days. Really? :nooo:

And Van Basten and Rijkaard weren't youth-players of AJAX because they played for Elinkwijk and DWS? Come on!

[Over Pasanens Head]

But what you are missing is that all of the great Ajax teams lined up as 4-3-3 but when play started they were all over the place - total football and all that. This current crowd have not got the skills (being a bastard is one of them) to do this - they all just stay in their respective starting position. For Ajax 4-3-3 is the foundation but not a system to stick rigidly to during the game.
If we are going to stick rigidly to a system with this crowd then we would be better off with 3-5-2 - when we have the players that can play the 4-3-3 system then lets use it


I forgot one last component that the great teams had - CONFIDENCE and this is what this one currently lacks in abundance. It will come though

[bryan]

Zeeburgia and Rood Wit A were big clubs in those days. Really?

I didn't say that. But it doesn't matter how small the clubs were, they aren't Ajax youth players.

And Van Basten and Rijkaard weren't youth-players of AJAX because they played for Elinkwijk and DWS? Come on!

I don't remember saying this either, but if they transferred to Ajax under the age of 18 (which they did) then they are clearly Ajax youth players.

Look, you said Ajax won all of their European Cups with 70%-80% home grown players, I've given you an example of one we won with only 36% home grown players. Even if we include Krol (who didn't play against Panathinaikos) and Hulshoff as Ajax youth players, when they are clearly not (is Sergio de Windt a Juve youth product?) we still only approach 6/11ths, or 54% - still falling well short of that 70%.

So what was arguably Ajax's greatest success was achieved with a fair amount of purchased players. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but it does go against the aura that has been created around the club during the past few years. The key was that the right players were bought. This is the big picture I'm trying to remind people of.

[343]

I didn't say that. But it doesn't matter how small the clubs were, they aren't Ajax youth players.

And Van Basten and Rijkaard weren't youth-players of AJAX because they played for Elinkwijk and DWS? Come on!

I don't remember saying this either, but if they transferred to Ajax under the age of 18 (which they did) then they are clearly Ajax youth players.

We can talk about it for years, but in my book Hulshoff and Krol are youth players....They were no big names, first 2 seasons they were substitutes and as a player they were completely shaped by AJAX.

Look, you said Ajax won all of their European Cups with 70%-80% home grown players, I've given you an example of one we won with only 36% home grown players. Even if we include Krol (who didn't play against Panathinaikos) and Hulshoff as Ajax youth players, when they are clearly not (is Sergio de Windt a Juve youth product?) we still only approach 6/11ths, or 54% - still falling well short of that 70%.

So what was arguably Ajax's greatest success was achieved with a fair amount of purchased players. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but it does go against the aura that has been created around the club during the past few years. The key was that the right players were bought. This is the big picture I'm trying to remind people of.

Okay, at least half of the team. And the teams of 1987/1992 and 1995 were between 65 and 82 % homegrown. Is that better? :aai:

It's always the key that the right players are bought, but the key is that that Maduro and Vermaelen already know what it is like. Escudé still doesn't know.

[bryan]

How many matches has Maduro played at centre-back for Ajax?

[pizza 5]

only one that I have seen and that was in a 4-3-3.He did well,reminded me of Bobby Moore.....or do I mean Bobby Crush?

[Bert]

The first match was against Arsenal for as far as I know. After that he played as a defender against Boca, RBC, Prague, AZ, ADO and Roda. Maybe also against Feyenoord, I am not sure. I tried to forget most of that match.

[343]

Enough for me to rate Maduro as a better player than Escudé. More suitable player for AJAX. And it's not only his defending skills......

[Arthur]

How many matches has Maduro played at centre-back for Ajax?

In the A1 and Young Ajax he always played centre-back, i believe.

[Kowalczyk]

How many matches has Maduro played at centre-back for Ajax?

In the A1 and Young Ajax he always played centre-back, i believe.

That's right. He was 'Youth Player of the Year' as a centre-back. He hardly ever played in midfield before he played there in the first team.

K.

[bryan]

We should give him a go then, next to SQD (who is bloody good). I just hope he doesn't turn into Heitinga Mk II.

[343]

It's not both Maduro and Escudé. It's or Maduro or Escudé....

After this season Escudé has a one year contract, so he will be sold. I don't think he will sign a new deal with AJAX.