General Football Discussion

[jamcocteau]

UEFA have anounced that the Euro 2012 will be held in Poland and Ukraine (and not the heavy favourite candidate; Italy).

I think this is great news, support for a non major football country's development (no insult intended)....and finally someone someone's shown the Italians the middle finger....

Congrats to both countries on this but have serious doubts about the Ukrainian side of things. Have been at matches in both countries in last year or so.

Was in Poznan for Euro U20 Championships final last year with Scotland v Spain. Was well organised - whole tournament held in that region so hosts managed very well and think it helped the bid a lot. Change in that area in 5 years has been amazing - have been working in Poznan on and off since 200o and have seen some massive investment in that time. Poznan has been chosen as has direct rail links to Berlin and also by the time championship I beleive motorway to Germany will be completed. So no issues with Polish side.

As for Ukraine - after Scotland game there not a country willing to visit for football again. Shite ground in Kiev and as for police the least said the better. Scottish fans, inc woman and children attacked in main square night before game by right wing thugs - police stood by and watched innocent people being beat up and then tried to arrest them when hospital treatment required. Day of game directed fans down one way street where met with barrage of bottles and baseball bats, again no police action. Local officials then tried to blame scots for the trouble after event. At stadium - no proper segregation with home fans above away fans - so pelted with shite throughout game.

As I say congrats to both countries but have very serious doubts about the Ukraine side of things.

As for Italy, control at football there is a joke. Was in Bari 2 weeks ago for Italy v Scotland game. Supposed to be tight security - my arse. Walked in to ground without showing my ticket to anybody and watched 2nd half in Italian section below Scottish fans although tight security supposedly being enforced. The following week there was the beating up of the Man Utd fans - authorities there have no clue how to run football matches so glad they do not have the tournament

[Kowalczyk]

Re-posting...

Please Can We Have Our Ball Back?

World Cup winner Alan Ball is dead at age 61.

Final proof that being a great player (as he was) does not necessarily make you a great coach. I read somewhere that he relegated four of the five teams he managed.

As I say, great player though, in his day.

K.

[SE6Ajacied]

Such a pity this about Leeds United. A much loved club by fans around the country and the fans really don't deserve their terrible reputation...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.j ... gips29.xml

[Kowalczyk]

Right... It's getting out of hand in the Young Ajax thread. The French national team is being discussed there and it doesn't seem to stop. Time to 'transfer' a few of those posts to this thread... Here we go!

French national team? Who are they? Ah yes, that useless mob who can't win anything unless Zidane is playing...

OK, I wanted to play nice, but now you're just getting nonsensical (and pretty aggressive too, for no reason).

So France is a useless mob? Last time I checked, they won the WC in 98, the EC in 2000, failed dramatically in 2002 (WITH ZIDANE, so your point is basically invalid), reached the quarters in 2004, lost the final in 2006 on PKs and is currently ranked second best team in the world. So yeah, definitely, it's a <sarcastic quotes>useless</sarcastic quotes> mob.......... (note the numerous periods for additional sarcasm).

Also, I can't help but feel the irony when I read such a remark from a guy from New Zealand, a country that delivers SO MUCH on the international stage that they actually make Japan look like a decent team :00000639.gif:

Ok, clearly I have to lace my posts with extensive smileys and winking emoticons before people realise they're all in good humour...

And the fact that they failed WITH Zidane doesn't invalidate my point that they never win anything WITHOUT Zidane

Well you're right it doesn't, so I'll just invalidate it right now. You say that France can't win anything unless Zidane is playing. To prove that, you'd have to find a competition where he wasn't playing and France lost. Thing is that during his international career, France either did great with him playing, or bad with him playing. To sum it up, you're either talking out of your ass or very biased against France for whatever reason :00000620.gif: (yeah, it is the kind of smiley you were talking about)

PS: France also reached the semi-finals of the WC twice (82, 86) and won the european championship in 84 (Zidane was about 10 at the time). So yeah, definitely, worthless mob.

Didn't France pull him (and Thuram, Makalele) out of retirement during WC 2006 qualifying because things were getting too close for comfort? Aren't France currently third in their UEFA 2008 qualifying group?
And perhaps the most damning of all. The 2002 World Cup, where Zidane was injured for the first two games and France was promptly eliminated in the group stage.

To sum it up, you're either talking out of your ass or very biased against France for whatever reason :00000620.gif: (yeah, it is the kind of smiley you were talking about)

Ah, you're beginning to see the light

Right then. Please continue this discussion here...

K.

[Frans]

Well, I see my point about the results from the 80's being too old to count has disappeared ;)

Anyway

Also, I can't help but feel the irony when I read such a remark from a guy from New Zealand, a country that delivers SO MUCH on the international stage that they actually make Japan look like a decent team :00000639.gif:

Ok, I hadn't noticed this before, and I know you're taking the piss, but I'll respond anyway. First, i'm not actually from NZ. 2nd, Everybody knows the national sport of NZ is rugby, and what happened last time NZ played France (a country whose population is a mere ~15 times that of NZ) at rugby?
I daresay that NZ punches well above it's weight in many sports. Sadly soccer is not one of them, 1982 excepted.

[DanK]

And if not for NZ, Australia wouldn't have have of "our" entertainers...Although Frans you can have Russel Crowe back...Please!

[carcajou]

Well, I see my point about the results from the 80's being too old to count has disappeared ;)

You can't be serious..... You say that France is nothing without Zidane, but where is the proof? Apparently only the period where he was an international is taken into account and in this very period, he played during ALL the competitions, so you just have nothing to base your opinion upon.... Also, is it like all the other players are shit?

Is Makelele a crap player? What about Vieira? Henry? Abidal? Malouda? Sagnol? Ribery? Please Frans, let's be serious a second....

I know it must be hard for you to see France be so efficient (not very entertaining though) on the international level, but please, I beg you, move on, as France is probably one of the, if not THE best team in the world.

[aveslacker]

Well, I see my point about the results from the 80's being too old to count has disappeared ;)

Anyway

Also, I can't help but feel the irony when I read such a remark from a guy from New Zealand, a country that delivers SO MUCH on the international stage that they actually make Japan look like a decent team :00000639.gif:

Ok, I hadn't noticed this before, and I know you're taking the piss, but I'll respond anyway. First, i'm not actually from NZ. 2nd, Everybody knows the national sport of NZ is rugby, and what happened last time NZ played France (a country whose population is a mere ~15 times that of NZ) at rugby?
I daresay that NZ punches well above it's weight in many sports. Sadly soccer is not one of them, 1982 excepted.

I seem to remember France pwning New Zealand in the Rugby World Cup semifinals a few years ago.

[carcajou]

I seem to remember France pwning New Zealand in the Rugby World Cup semifinals a few years ago.

hehe, I wanted to mention that, but since it's a football forum, I passed. Although, in all fairness, New Zealand currently owns the world's mama at rugby and will easily win the world cup in France this summer.

[Frans]

You can't be serious..... You say that France is nothing without Zidane, but where is the proof? Apparently only the period where he was an international is taken into account and in this very period, he played during ALL the competitions, so you just have nothing to base your opinion upon....

Errrrrr, once again, in case you missed it the first time...

Didn't France pull him (and Thuram, Makalele) out of retirement during WC 2006 qualifying because things were getting too close for comfort? Aren't France currently third in their UEFA 2008 qualifying group?
And perhaps the most damning of all. The 2002 World Cup, where Zidane was injured for the first two games and France was promptly eliminated in the group stage.

So, to sum up, with Zidane they won '98 and '00 and lost to the eventual winners in '04 and '06. Without Zidane... the current team is diabolical, given what you should expect from a team overflowing with talent as you rightly point out

And if not for NZ, Australia wouldn't have have of "our" entertainers...Although Frans you can have Russel Crowe back...Please!

South Sydney is definitely NOT in NZ. He's yours. Deal with it

[carcajou]

So, if you're right, France should fail completely in 2008.... Somehow, I doubt it. I'm ready to place a few bets on this one.

[Frans]

So, if you're right, France should fail completely in 2008.... Somehow, I doubt it. I'm ready to place a few bets on this one.

If they even get there :p
I'm game if you are. What are the stakes?

[carcajou]

So, if you're right, France should fail completely in 2008.... Somehow, I doubt it. I'm ready to place a few bets on this one.

If they even get there :p
I'm game if you are. What are the stakes?

According to the schedule, France still has to play :

Ukraine, Georgia, Scotland and Lithuania at home and Italy, Faroe Islands and Ukraine away. I don't sincerely see them losing their home games and only Italy and Ukraine away should really be a problem. So yeah, I think they will in fact qualify. I'm no fortune teller, but we'll just see what happens. Let's be patient and whomever will be right in the end will be entitled to rub it in the other's face :00001757.gif:

[Over Pasanens Head]

The push for Europe for the season 2012/13 is still very much alive for Braintree Town. They toyed & teased the opposition before brushing them aside with ease by 4 goals to 2 in the penalty shoot-out. What a shame the local rivals Bishops Stortford lost out in the other semi final.

If anybody wants a ticket for the final then do hurry as I am sure that the final will be as an exciting affair as the FA Cup Final and that the tickets will go like hot cakes..

[SE6Ajacied]

I see that the lawyers have found a way around the ten point penalty for clubs that go into administration during the season. First Leeds United http://sport.scotsman.com/football.cfm?id=695562007 who went into administration during the week with debts of around £35 million after they were all but relegated last weekend. Today Boston United of League two went into administration during the game when they were 3-1 down and also certainties for relegation to the Conference. Both clubs lose ten (worthless) points this season and will start next year with a clean sheet....

[SPL]

OPH

I did look out for Braintree result yesterday. Good luck for the final and hopefully Conference footy next season.

Last season you were playing Worthing and now we could be 3 leagues below you next season!!

[Van basten]

With our scoring awerage 2,47 goals per game, we became the best scoring team in europe this season

[Kowalczyk]

You might remember the World Cup of 1994 in the U.S., where Ruud Gullit unexpectedly and very suddenly left the Holland team and went home. The reason was never made public. Did he fall out with Dick Advocaat? Did he disagree with the tactics? No-one knew.

A few weeks ago someone told me that it had nothing to do with football. This bloke claimed that Gullit's sudden departure had everything to do with the FIFA's announcement, just before the tournament started, that from now on they were going to check players' urine samples for cocaine.

If that's true... Would be a pretty amazing story...

K.

[DanK]

You might remember the World Cup of 1994 in the U.S., where Ruud Gullit unexpectedly and very suddenly left the Holland team and went home. The reason was never made public. Did he fall out with Dick Advocaat? Did he disagree with the tactics? No-one knew.

A few weeks ago someone told me that it had nothing to do with football. This bloke claimed that Gullit's sudden departure had everything to do with the FIFA's announcement, just before the tournament started, that from now on they were going to check players' urine samples for cocaine.

If that's true... Would be a pretty amazing story...

K.

Lets give him the benefit of the doubt until "proven", but as you said Ko. Would be a pretty amazing story. This would go totally against the perception of Gullit.

[Manneken Pis]

Very interesting article about Shalke for those (like me) who don't know them....

(Source: FootballUnlimited.com)

145,000 see 'German Newcastle' blow it

Germany's most popular team, Schalke, may have blown the chance to end their 49-year title drought.

Anna Kessel

May 13, 2007 12:56 AM


Imagine a football fan's utopia, where supporters decide ticket prices and who sits on the board; where players travel hundreds of miles to visit their fans and mingle with them at training; where supporters debate the finances of the club with the chairman and contribute to the design of their stadium. Such a club does exist. They are called Schalke 04 and they did not deserve to go through the agonies they suffered yesterday, on an afternoon of gut-wrenching, unbearable tension in the Bundesliga

Schalke are the most popular club in Germany. Yesterday afternoon, their stadium in Gelsenkirchen was full with 61,780 fans - for an away game. Schalke played at nearby Dortmund, where 20,000 of the 83,000 full house were in the blue-and-white away end. Add the two crowds together and it is just short of the European record for a club game, 146,433, though they all packed into a single stadium, Hampden Park, for the 1937 Scottish Cup final between Celtic and Aberdeen.

While the Premiership has been exciting this season, it has also been predictable: anyone could have named the top four before the big kick-off last August. Germany could not have provided a greater contrast. Bayern Munich, the Manchester United of the Bundesliga, cannot qualify for the Champions League and, going into yesterday's penultimate round of matches (Saturday-afternoon kick-offs, by the way), only Schalke, Stuttgart and Bremen could win it. The three German teams who have played Champions League finals in the past 10 years, Bayern, Dortmund and Leverkusen, are nowhere. This was something like Newcastle, Tottenham and Aston Villa battling it out for the championship and Schalke, the German Newcastle, were favourites. Until yesterday. Now, even if they win their last game, they are unlikely to overtake new leaders Stuttgart, who were twice behind, but won at Bochum. Bremen, beaten by Frankfurt, are out of it.

What made it worse to bear was that, at one time, both Stuttgart and Bremen were losing, while Schalke were having the better of it against the local rivals they refuse to call by their real name, referring to them derogatively as Zecke (mosquito). They finished 2-0 losers and what might have been the biggest party in world football this season is on hold.

While there is still a chance, Schalke fans will travel from all over Germany to watch the last game at home to Bielefeld. Gelsenkirchen is bracing itself for the invasion - all hotel rooms are booked and the fire brigade have been refused leave. If Schalke do win the championship - they must win handsomely and hope Stuttgart drop points - it will be the biggest celebration in the town since 1958, the last time they won the title. Forty-nine years and three stadiums later, they are still waiting.

Two months ago, it had all looked so certain when Schalke were seven points clear. Then fans had brought the replica trophy plates to the training ground for autographs. But three defeats on the trot slashed their lead and now it is out of their hands.

Schalke have been here before. In 2001, it took a goal in the fourth minute of injury time by Bayern Munich away to Hamburg to snatch the title from their grasp. The memory still hurts. That day, a TV interviewer informed them they had won and ecstatic players began to celebrate. The images were beamed across Germany. Seconds later, they learned of the Bayern goal. To this day, Schalke are mocked for those celebrations, the video loop repeated on the sports channels.

Schalke, named after a district of Gelsenkirchen, a former coal-mining town, are often compared to Newcastle United. Twinned towns, they share an industrial history, a huge fanbase and are perennial underachievers. They also share a friendship of sorts. Back in 1999, a fan exchange took place. Schalke's representative, Dirk Martensen, set off for the Toon - knitted beer can holder around his neck, wrists decked in blue-and-white scarves - to meet Newcastle chairman Freddy Shepherd. The two discussed ticket prices: at that time Schalke charged about £3 for the cheapest ticket. 'Oh you won't win anything charging that,' said Shepherd. 'Our fans expect the best players.' Martensen smiled sagely and said, 'We won the Uefa Cup two years ago, what have you won?'

Schalke are built on fan power, a working-class identity that dictates the ethos of the club - hard graft and low wages. Former manager Rudi Assauer used to say: 'How can we expect unemployed fans to pay high ticket prices to subsidise high-earning players?'

With unemployment at 20 per cent locally, the club are the backbone of the community. Schalke membership gets every fan discounts in local supermarkets. The Dachverband (national supporters club) in the centre of town employs 25 staff to sell everything from bomber jackets to fair-trade coffee and concert tickets. Until last year's World Cup, they even ran the tourist office.

Club secretary Peter Peters is hands-on with the fans. An earnest and passionate man, he spent more than 50 hours negotiating a rise in ticket prices for this season. Eventually €4 (£2.70) was agreed, but to be split over two seasons. Peters is philosophical when it comes to quibbling over euros. 'The fans say we only have success because they are here and they create this fantastic atmosphere. It's important. It's not like a jeans shop where people can just go somewhere else. Schalke is their life.'

Some years ago, Peters tried raising prices in a small part of the stadium without consultation. 'It was only 700 seats, but we did not discuss it with the supporters and they boycotted the match. For them it wasn't the price, they just wanted to feel they can decide.'

Schalke fan Stuart Dykes, originally from Mansfield, says he feels more at home in football here than he can in England. Dykes swapped the red of Manchester United for Royal Blue and has spent the past 20 years living in Germany and supporting Schalke. 'Here with Schalke, I feel I have a voice,' he says.

Such is the power of the supporters they even make it into the dressing room. Last November, fans penned an open letter to the team calling for more passion on the pitch. With Schalke, it does not matter if you win or lose, you just have to try. Coach Mirko Slomka read the letter to his players. At the next home game, against Bayern Munich, as if to underline their point, the fans refused to cheer for the first 19 minutes and four seconds of the game (1904, the year Schalke started). Peter Lovenkrands put Schalke ahead and was met by silence. As the clock crept towards 19 minutes a slow clap began. Around the stadium it grew in volume. Just as the protest neared its end a roar began and Leban Kobiashvili took possession of the ball and lashed it into the top corner for a second goal. The stadium erupted. Schalke fans say they still get goosebumps thinking about it. At the players' request, the team appeared on the pitch holding a message for the fans. It read: 'We are Schalke, we are passion.' But there is fan culture and then there is cold hard cash. And this year Schalke came into an unprecedented amount of money.

An estimated €125m, five-year sponsorship deal with Russian energy company Gazprom gave the club the biggest sponsorship deal in German football history. Auditing firm Deloitte lists Schalke fourteenth in the list of biggest football revenues in the world.

Josef Schusenberg, who next month takes over as chairman and who masterminded the deal, says the cash will help Schalke extend internationally. 'It's very important for us. In Germany we cannot do like in England. Chelsea with Abramovich, Liverpool and the Americans, our club belongs to no one. We are like David and Goliath against them. First we go to Russia to install fan shops, then in 2008 we begin expanding to the Far East.'

With a background in finance, Schnusenberg will be different to the outgoing chairman Gerhard Rehberg, who was a coalminer and former mayor of Gelsenkirchen. Schnusenberg says the fans love him - 'Sport is first, money is second' - but many supporters are worried about where Gazprom's influence might take the club.

Gazprom attempted to smooth relations by distributing 10,000 free Schalke flags to fans, but at the next game the ultras unveiled a message for the company: 'Tradition cannot be bought'.

Among the left-wing group that produces the official Schalke fanzine, Unser Vater, there is concern about the deal. 'Show me a large company that doesn't have dirty money,' says Dr Susanne Franke, chair of the Schalke Fan Initiative. 'We were more comfortable with brewery sponsors. Schalke is our religion, beer is our holy water.' Happy hour on match day begins at 10am.

Plenty of fans agree. Markko, a taxi driver who is originally from Finland, has supported Schalke home and away for 35 years and wears his own T-shirts: 'Not all Schalke fans are psychopaths, but I am,' is a particular favourite. 'We don't know where this deal will take us,' says Markko. 'What will Gazprom expect from us? What happens when they leave? My great-grandmother used to say, "A Russian is a Russian even when you boil him in butter." She meant those in power, of course, not the man in the street.'

For new players, all this fan culture is disorientating. Peter Lovenkrands signed from Rangers last summer and it has taken him time to settle in to the Schalke way of life. 'Here, everybody every day is Schalke. It's crazy,' he says. 'If we win the league they are estimating one million fans will come to Gelsenkirchen to celebrate.' The club have always been popular and film fans may recall that the crew in Das Boot, the classic film about a U-boat, were all Schalke fans. So was the previous Pope, John Paul II.

Lovenkrands has had to get used to putting the fans first. Supporters attend training here and sit alongside players in their club restaurant. Every year, the players are sent out to visit fan groups across the country - there are 850 in total - and Lovenkrands was sent to Leipzig, four hours' drive away. 'I couldn't believe it, every player had to go somewhere, some went as far as Munich. We drove to Leipzig and met 100 fans who gave me the key to their town.'

At the AGM, held in the stadium at the beginning of the season, Lovenkrands had another surprise. 'I thought they were having a wee party. But there was the board debating with the fans about the finances of the club. Then they gave out medals to long-standing supporters of 50 and 60 years, and had a minute's silence for the fans who had died that year. It's a very special club here.'

Lovenkrands has been injured for the past eight weeks, forced to watch from the sidelines as his team let their lead slip. Even as a newcomer, he has a sense of how important this title challenge has been for Schalke. 'The kitmen and everyone here talk about how long it's been. The backroom staff and Gerald Asamoah, the only player remaining from that 2001 team, remember that game when they lost in the last minute. It haunts them still.'

In truth, they never looked like champions yesterday. Now they look sure to have another late-season failure to haunt them.

[SPL]

A very interesting article.

My best mate lives up in Newcastle and about 15 years ago when he was working down south with me he had already been to many German grounds.

I asked if he had been to Gelsenkirchen to see Schalke and he was amazed that I knew where they came from.He had never met an English footy fan who knew where they came from.( I am still full of useless knowledge)

I will send a copy of this article to him..

[SPL]

Are you Ok OPH ????

Sorry to see Braintree lose their playoff 1-0 to Salisbury.

As well as watching Worthing I have always had a soft spot for Oxford United
(I was born in the city and very proud of it) They are in the Conference( level 5) been in the top 2 all season and then lost their playoff on penalties.(playoff for second team to be promoted.)

Still amongst all this playoff gloom there is one bright light. Fword out of europe.

[Over Pasanens Head]

Are you Ok OPH ????

Sorry to see Braintree lose their playoff 1-0 to Salisbury.

As well as watching Worthing I have always had a soft spot for Oxford United
(I was born in the city and very proud of it) They are in the Conference( level 5) been in the top 2 all season and then lost their playoff on penalties.(playoff for second team to be promoted.)

Still amongst all this playoff gloom there is one bright light. Fword out of europe.

Thanks SPL - - the push for Europe is still on, but delayed another year. Salisbury scored 6 minutes from the end and Braintree almost pulled it back with 3 minutes to go but the ball decided to hit the post instead.

Shame about Oxford as I had them to be promoted in the prediction league I am part of.

As to the playoffs - we still have the Mighty Blackpool to follow as the won the semi-final first leg away at Oldham 2-1.

[Rubin Stark]

That is a fascinating article on Schalke.

Also, can anyone please tell me the prizemoney for eeredivisie champions and runners-up? I got this happy idea today that it could be more profitable for a club to finish second and endure the playoffs and champions league qualifiers than finishing first...

[Philippe]

I got this happy idea today that it could be more profitable for a club to finish second and endure the playoffs and champions league qualifiers than finishing first...

... providing they do eventually qualify for the CL