The Big Euro 2008 Discussion

[Van basten]

Agree, another good game. Should have been 4-0 though. The defending on Henry's goal was pretty horrendous. That will probably be the downfall in a close game. If the offense keeps playing that well, though, it may not be a problem.

I think there was an offside when Henry scored. Anyway, i don't think that France looked very bad. They had their chances, and after the result became 2-1, i thought it's gonna be very dificult, but then, in seconds Robben scored a fucking stunner! And it was all over. Sneijder's goals was just a cherry on the cake

[Tom_]

Yeah, I agree. Although Holland's been playing well, they've been lucky to come up against out of sorts opponents. If Henry had equalised when he had that one-on-one with van der Sar the result could've been very different. Still it's nice to see all those goals going in...

[Manneken Pis]

Yes, two magnificent performances, but they've found themselves ahead early in both games. With the opposition forced to move forward they've countered well (and relied on world class goalkeeping), and virtualy everything that could go in went in.

They still have to dissect a compact defence that isn't littered with OAPs.

It's feeling an awful lot like Euro 2000 where everything was tickety-boo (sp?), until the semis.

Still, I'm enjoying the ride while it lasts....

[DanK]

The difference with this game than the Italy one, was after the first 25 or 30 min, Holland sat back just a little too much. In that first 25min though, Holland were playing some irresistible football. Their one touch passing was beautiful to watch.

I have been more than impressed with van Bronkhorst and Boulahrouz in the first two games. On these performances, I would be more than happy to have a player like Boulahrouz at Ajax next season. He's the tough defender that we need.

Obviously Wes is still playing great, but van Nistelrooy put in 110% last night, and van der Vaart touches, especially in the first half were impressive.

The defense looked a little out of sorts, but in theory they came up against one of the better attacking sides in world football and only had 1 goal against. Not bad at all. Sure France could have scored more (van der Sar - you legend!), but then Holland could have too.

Interesting though is that if Romania beat Holland, France and Italy are out. Not saying Holland should lay back against Romania, but I am sure the rest of the teams wouldn't mind seeing the back of the 2 WC finalists. France and Italy are no where near as bad as the scoreline suggests.

It will be interesting to see how the defense might hold up against Spain or Portugal, but lets not forget in all qualifiers Holland only let in 5 goals or so.

Anyway, right now I am proud to be a Dutchie. Hup Holland!

[DanK]

...
It's feeling an awful lot like Euro 2000 where everything was tickety-boo (sp?), until the semis....

In 2000 Holland were lucky to win the first game, 50/50 penalty decision, then they beat an extremely poor Danish side, who had already lost by the same scoreline to France. The tournament kicked off for them with the win against France. Then of course there was that 1/4 final against Yugoslavia and the stupidest loss ever to Italy.

But I can see what you mean, Holland played some magnificent football in that tournament. They along with France, were the best side there, same in 98.

I happened to catch a repeat of the 3-0 win against Italy, and the commentator made an interesting point, that no matter what happens in the final at Vienna, people will be talking about the Dutch performance for years to come. I agree, but for once I would like people to talk about the team in Orange being Champions of Europe.

[Monkey Tonk]

I happened to catch a repeat of the 3-0 win against Italy, and the commentator made an interesting point, that no matter what happens in the final at Vienna, people will be talking about the Dutch performance for years to come. I agree, but for once I would like people to talk about the team in Orange being Champions of Europe.

That's the same thing Cruyff likes to point out about the 1974 team. I admire that artistic conviction in him, but right now I much prefer the killer instinct in Marco van Basten. He has really grown as a coach in the past two years. So far, this team plays with the edge and razor sharp finishing that reminds me of the master. But I don't want to start dreaming. One game at a time. First a semi-friendly, and then hopefully three life-or-death encounters.

[SPL]

Most points covered and our defence is still a little weak but what beautiful football.Robbens 's goal was superb but for the second match running my favourite footballer Wesley stole the show .

I fell in love with Ajax and Holland way back in the early 1970's and this week I have watched some beautiful football from the Oranje .Over the years when they have turned it on the Dutch are very special .

England could not play football like that in a 100 years.

KJH to come on and score the winner in the final would be perfect.

[ajaxusa]

I sort of understand the cynicism. Hard experience has taught you to expect disaster even after the brightest start. And it might all go horribly wrong in the knockout stages, sure. But man, we have to let ourselves enjoy this amazing display...

I watched both games with my sons. They've both been sufficiently brainwashed with Ajax pyjamas and teddy bears to ensure that they support the red and white. But they've never seen the amazing, beautiful and lethal football I saw in 1993-1995 that made me fall in LOVE with Ajax.

Now, they've seen something amazing. I could hear it in Ryan's voice (Ryan is 9 years old): He's never seen anything like it. He was hooked by Oranj last night, I'm sure of it.

[DanK]

How could he not be hooked??? It is quite rare to see a display of football like that in the modern game. People everywhere are talking about it, and even non football fans.

I was wearing my Nederland top around town today and I got hugs and high fives etc. People would just come up to me and want to talk about the game. Although the hugs were from drunk Swedish and Spanish fans...

Football needs this every once in a while to remind us what a beautiful game it really is.

[Venezuelan Ajacied]

What amazes me is the fact that Sneijder and VdV have actually worked together in midfield...that never was the case at Ajax. It must be said i have never seen such a dominating performance by an orange team...not even in 98....we were good in that world cup...but this is something else...Total Football has been reborn is what some sports analist said in this part of the world.

[SPL]

Just enjoy what we have seen. If it all goes wrong the Oranje have still shown the world how football should be played.We Ajax fans will remember Wesley's goals and say he learnt that in Amsterdam with Ajax.


I will say it again Thank you Holland , Netherlands to be acurate, for again showing us how football should be played.

Will England ever teach their kids to play the Dutch way? Never in a million light years. Man u have won the CL , thanks to a Dutch goalie, of course so all is well in England.

As far as football is concerned England and Holland may as well come from different planets.

Heres to the Planet Oranje.

[SE6Ajacied]

How could he not be hooked??? It is quite rare to see a display of football like that in the modern game. People everywhere are talking about it, and even non football fans.

I was wearing my Nederland top around town today and I got hugs and high fives etc. People would just come up to me and want to talk about the game. Although the hugs were from drunk Swedish and Spanish fans...

Football needs this every once in a while to remind us what a beautiful game it really is.

There wasn't much that hadn't been said about the game by the time I logged on here so haven't posted but I can talk about the "fan culture" thing.

I watched the game in De Hems, a (the!) Dutch Bar in London. It was absolutely heaving with Oranje once you'd queued up to get in. The atmosphere was great. I've watched plenty of England games in pubs full of people but this was right up there. Perhaps it's the Dutch colours, you can just see that everyone has dressed up with Oranje hats/hair ribbons for the girls etc etc (with England White/Red it isn't quite so noticeable if it's done at all).

Anyway, a good atmosphere and the football wasn't bad either. The Bellvue Kriek (beer) helped too. Anyway, they are selling tickets (!) to get in for the quarter final so I shall be going back. The English DJ I think must have been confused as hell by the records he was playing. I recognised Doe Maar and Andre Hazes but most of the others in the bar (there were quite a few "adopted" Dutchmen too) recognised the rest too judging by the singing.

[SE6Ajacied]

everyone has dressed up with Oranje hats/hair ribbons for the girls etc etc

On the same theme btw they showed the current Albert Heijn ad on the ITV highlights programme last night ("Mr Heijn" cycling round town and the joke is that everyone is wearing something Oranje). I think perhaps it is a Dutch thing after all

[The Purple Cow]

This team is playing very good football but it is not playing Dutch football.

This is an Oranje team made in Milan.

[DanK]

This team is playing very good football but it is not playing Dutch football.

This is an Oranje team made in Milan.

Thats an interesting point TPC.

At the moment, I am not sure thats necessarily a bad thing. Would we be happier if we had tried to play 4-3-3 been as boring as all crap, like the qualifiers? For some reason this system suits this squad perfectly, and for the most part its as exciting as hell to watch. It will be interesting to see what van Marwijk does with this squad, and if he reverts back to the Dutch way.

Will be also be interesting to see what vB tries to do with Ajax next season. I have a feeling it might still take a season before things start to gel, but if he can get this sort of performance from the Ajax squad I look forward to the next few years under his management...fingers crossed hey?

[Kowalczyk]

This team is playing very good football but it is not playing Dutch football.

Depends on your definition of 'Dutch football'. The 4-3-3 system, with 'classic' wingers, one centre forward and a 'number 10' directly behind him is the old skool Ajax system, but the Dutch national team definitely did not always play in a 4-3-3. In fact, the only Holland team that actually won a major trophy (Euro 1988) played in a classic 4-4-2 that could in no way be interpreted as a 4-3-3. The Holland team that was (according to many) the best Oranje team since the 1970s (the World Cup 1998 crop) did not play in a typical 4-3-3, either. Kluivert and Bergkamp were a couple upfront, and there were no classic wingers (Overmars was not a starter in Holland's best games; Boudewijn Zenden normally played in a similar role on the left as Erwin Koeman in 1988).

The Dutch national team is not the same as Ajax. 4-3-3 is Ajax culture; not necessarily Oranje culture. 'Total football' is an Oranje thing (this term was never applied to Ajax and pretty much invented for the Oranje side of 1974, when Ajax were already sliding downhill). 'Total football' was not necessarily played in a 4-3-3. 'Total football' as Rinus Michels invented it, had to do with offensive fullbacks and football without fixed positions: defenders became midfielders when Holland had possession, midfielders became strikers - and when the fullbacks stormed forward, midfielders took over their defensive duties, etc.

4-3-3 (Ajax) and 'total football' (Oranje)? Two different philosophies, but people always mix 'em up.

K.

[The Purple Cow]

Yep none of what you say is wrong Ko, but my point is that this is a counter-attacking team, playing the way that A.C. Milan did when van Basten played there.

[Kowalczyk]

Yep none of what you say is wrong Ko, but my point is that this is a counter-attacking team, playing the way that A.C. Milan did when van Basten played there.

Yeah, correct. Absolutely true.

Goes to show that a skillful, determined counter-attacking team (like this Oranje team) is actually much more attractive and entertaining to watch than an offensive side playing in a 4-3-3 that really has no clue (like Ajax 2004-2008).

A team that has no tactical plan, no structure and not too much talent, and therefore constantly loses the ball and is constantly ripped apart, can never be entertaining. Was Ajax an offensive team this season? On paper: yes. In practice: no, simply because you can never be offensive if you can't string more than two proper passes together.

This Holland side is a joy to watch. Not because they're so amazingly offensive (which they aren't) but because they have skill, talent, passion, remarkable team-spirit, confidence and a plan. Just like AC Milan 1988-1990, so yeah, I actually like that analogy.

K.

[Arthur]

Ajax '71-'73 did play Total Football, although you're correct that Total Football and 4-3-3 are completely different concepts.
They can go together, but don't have to.

Space and the creation of it were vital for the tactic of Total Football to be played into fruition, Ajax defender Barry Hulshoff explained how the team that won the European Cup in 1971, 1972 and 1973 worked it to their advantage. "We discussed space the whole time. Johan Cruyff always talked about where people should run and where they should stand, and when they should not move."

Source

[Kowalczyk]

100% correct. What I was saying (or trying to say anyway) was that people didn't caal it total football yet when Ajax played it, in 1971-1973. The term 'total football' was first introduced (or at least made famous) in 1974, when Holland rocked the World Cup.

K.

[gordonvandekamp]

Depends on your definition of 'Dutch football'. The 4-3-3 system, with 'classic' wingers, one centre forward and a 'number 10' directly behind him is the old skool Ajax system, but the Dutch national team definitely did not always play in a 4-3-3. In fact, the only Holland team that actually won a major trophy (Euro 1988) played in a classic 4-4-2 that could in no way be interpreted as a 4-3-3. The Holland team that was (according to many) the best Oranje team since the 1970s (the World Cup 1998 crop) did not play in a typical 4-3-3, either. Kluivert and Bergkamp were a couple upfront, and there were no classic wingers (Overmars was not a starter in Holland's best games; Boudewijn Zenden normally played in a similar role on the left as Erwin Koeman in 1988).

The Dutch national team is not the same as Ajax. 4-3-3 is Ajax culture; not necessarily Oranje culture. 'Total football' is an Oranje thing (this term was never applied to Ajax and pretty much invented for the Oranje side of 1974, when Ajax were already sliding downhill). 'Total football' was not necessarily played in a 4-3-3. 'Total football' as Rinus Michels invented it, had to do with offensive fullbacks and football without fixed positions: defenders became midfielders when Holland had possession, midfielders became strikers - and when the fullbacks stormed forward, midfielders took over their defensive duties, etc.

4-3-3 (Ajax) and 'total football' (Oranje)? Two different philosophies, but people always mix 'em up.

K.

I wish people weren't so hung up on formations in football. Especially with 'total football' wherein the underlying concept seems to be finding space offensively and moving to create space where the original formation becomes lost. Players will move out of position and you won't have a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 when building an attack all the time or running a counter attack.

The way Oranje is playing now still utilizes all the concepts of total football and I think that's why they've been fun to watch. The attack is still a striker (van Nistelrooy) with a number 10, sneijder, and two wingers (robben, van persie, kuijt). They still have offensive full backs, van Bronkhorst/Heitinga. I think van Basten is smartly playing the defensive midfielders, Engelaar/De Jong because the defense can be weak and out of position. They all move and have been continuing the concepts of total football, even in van Basten's formation.

I appreciate the history and what it has done. I know it's part of the culture, but I don't think it should matter that much and I question it's philosophical importance.

[Kowalczyk]

Amen, brother.

It's a load of bollocks. Any system you play, you play because you think that's the best way to be beat an opponent. It's all about winning. And to some (including me) it's also about playing entertaining football. That's possible in many formations and I don't care which one Ajax and Holland play. As long as it's fun entertaining, based on skill rather than on physical power and as long as they win, I really don't care about the system.

If you believe a 4-3-3 formation gives you the biggest chance of winning a match, then play 4-3-3. If you believe some other formation will give you a bigger chance of winning, then go for that system. The system can never be a goal in itself. That would be extremely weird and stupid.

K.

[Ayman]

I would like to say thank you menno for your predictions on holland drawing with italy and france and losing to romania, please keep up the negative predictions. Oh and please dont say Holland will win euro2008. May I also request you do not post at the end of your messages 'Ajax Eredivisie champions 2009' you did that in 2007 and 2008 and look what happened we came so close yet so far. Thank you for your co-orporation

[DanK]

Personally i couldn't give a rats on the 'offical' formation. If they keep playing like this it can be 8-1-1 for all I care.

[The Purple Cow]

K-J hinted broadly on TV last night that he would play against Romania. I'm guessing van Basten will also want to rest Sneijder and v.d. Vaart. Also it makes sense not to play any guys with yellow cards - whoever they may be...