General Football Discussion

[Mr_Holte]

FIFA are a complete joke.

I've been going to almost every home and away England games including friendly's since the Euro 2004, and my chances of getting tickets for South Africa are minimal. I will still be going over wether I get tickets or not, but 12% is disgraceful.

[jamcocteau]

I really hate the FIFA... They're even worse than the UEFA...

I just read that the ticket allocation for World Cup participants in South Africa will be 12% of the stadium capacity per match. That's in the group stage. In the knock-out stages the two countries will get 8% of the stadium capacity each.

12%...? Hello... Can someone please tell the folks at FIFA that there are only two teams in every match...? They must be thinking that there are six or seven countries playing in every game... That would explain the allocation...

I mean: come on. Less than 25% of the tickets actually go to the fans...? Does anybody still have the illusion that football is the 'game of the people'?

K.

Not even attempting to defend UEFA or FIFA here but the fact that each team involved is actually getting 12 1/2 % of the tickets is actually a big move forward.

I have attented 4 finals tournaments watching Scotland - world cup finals in 1990 and 1998, and european champpionships in 1992 and 1996 and on these occassions the competing teams received anything between 5% and 8% of tickets for games.

Also not every country will ever have a big travelling support for games, lots of countries at World Cup 2006 did not sell their own allocation and ended up punting the unsold tickets on blackmarket - Ecuador and Jack Warner's Trinidad being 2 that spring to mind.

In my opinion, ticket allocations should only be allocated once the draw for the tournament has been made. Therefore for example if Netherlands were to play Germany, FIFA can then allocate say 25% to each country with the rest going on public sale, sponsors etc.

However if the game was Ecuador v Jamaica then the competing nations would only require 4-5,000 tickets for their own fans. Unsold tickets can then be sold to general public.

Selling tickets in advance of games being drawn is a stupid policy and one which only encourages a balck market to flourish.

Also like to add, that International tournaments always attract every hanger on and their granny anyway. 150,000 Dutch fans were down in Berne area for Netherlands v France last year but 3 months later only 175 manage to travel to Macedonia for their world cup qualifier - maybe just me but the 175 and those who follow Netherlands regularly away are entitled tickets for WC 2010, the rest , tough titty as they say.

[jamcocteau]

FIFA are a complete joke.

I've been going to almost every home and away England games including friendly's since the Euro 2004, and my chances of getting tickets for South Africa are minimal. I will still be going over wether I get tickets or not, but 12% is disgraceful.

Mr Holte

Assume if you have been to nearly every England game since 2004 that you are a member of the england fans club or whatever it is called. Just wanted to ask what is distribution criteria for tickets for away games.

I have been a member of the Scotland Travel Club for years now and they actually have a good system for distribution of tickets for away games where members are awarded 1 point for each away game attended. When it comes to a situation like Paris 2 years ago or Norway this coming August where demand is higher than tickets received - tickets are offered based upon attendance at last 10 away games. Therefore tickets are given to those who have attended last 10 away games going down the points list until all tickets distributed. Seems a fiar system, award first those who travel to games.

Do England not have something similar in place already

[Mr_Holte]

FIFA are a complete joke.

I've been going to almost every home and away England games including friendly's since the Euro 2004, and my chances of getting tickets for South Africa are minimal. I will still be going over wether I get tickets or not, but 12% is disgraceful.

Mr Holte

Assume if you have been to nearly every England game since 2004 that you are a member of the england fans club or whatever it is called. Just wanted to ask what is distribution criteria for tickets for away games.

I have been a member of the Scotland Travel Club for years now and they actually have a good system for distribution of tickets for away games where members are awarded 1 point for each away game attended. When it comes to a situation like Paris 2 years ago or Norway this coming August where demand is higher than tickets received - tickets are offered based upon attendance at last 10 away games. Therefore tickets are given to those who have attended last 10 away games going down the points list until all tickets distributed. Seems a fiar system, award first those who travel to games.

Do England not have something similar in place already

Yes we have pretty much the same system in place, only that ours are based on the last 24 months rather than 12. England have around 20,000 fans that will travel pretty much anywhere, and around 30,000 are expected to go to South Africa. My maths are terrible so I've no idea what 12% of most the stadiums will be, but around half of the predicted number will be doing well to get tickets.

Either way, if Im not succesfull I will just take in a few nuetral games which can be quite relaxing compared to the hostility you can sometimes get watching England.

What do people think the chances of Holland are? I have always thought England and Holland are very similar. Both flatter to deceive by doing well in the early stages, but never quite as good as they are hyped up to be. That's certainly the case with England, although we have at last got a great manager in place.

[Kowalczyk]

Holland's forward line and midfield are world class (which does not mean that you'll win the World Cup with them, as there are more countries with world class forward lines and midfields), but the defence is mediocre - and we don't have many options there. The statistics will tell a different story (our defense has been extremely good, statistically), but that has to do with the very very weak qualification group's we've been in in recent years.

I would say Holland are one of the ten best national teams in the world, at the moment. Which means you can go all the way, or crash out in the round of sixteen, against another country from the top ten.

K.

[Manneken Pis]

I have attented 4 finals tournaments watching Scotland - world cup finals in 1990 and 1998, and european champpionships in 1992 and 1996 and on these occassions the competing teams received anything between 5% and 8% of tickets for games.

Did you stay behind in St Etienne after they got knocked out?
I had a wonderful night there after the Holland v Mexico game partying with the Scots who decided to hang around.
One of my fondest major tournament souveniers....

[ZoefdeHaas]

Man Utd and Real agree a fee of nearly 100m euros for C Ronaldo.

WTF MAN WHY CORRUPT THE SPORT LIKE THAT

[Cedric]

A disgusting player in a disgusting club for a disgusting price. Fine.
I feel a bit sorry for the Ajacieden in Madrid though...

[Kowalczyk]

Right. Okay.

Can someone explain to me how it is possible that a club with debut of nearly 1 billion euros can buy a player for 94 million euros and pay their players their wages every month? I know that their debts are backed by real estate (the stadium, etc.), but they do need something like actual money in an actual bank account - in order to pay their players' wages and to pay Man Utd for Ronaldo... Where does it come from? They don't have it.

Can someone tell me how that works, in a purely technical, factual way? I'm genuinely, sincerely interested.

K.

[Khraa]

I'm not quite sure what Real Madrid's annual reports look like but there are a couple of ways it can be done.

1. Cash flow from operations. As long as RM generate more money from ticket sales, merchandise, and so on, than they have to pay on expenses (and debt payments) the available cash will increase.

2. Cash flow from desinvestments. When selling real estate (I know they did something like that in the 90's) they generate cash. As long the price is higher than the mortgage they will have more cash

3. Cash flow from financial activities. As long as anyone wants to loan Real Madrid money (and the old debtors agree) Real can get loans and more money. Issuing stock is another way to get cash (but I'm not sure if that's possible for Real Madrid).

As long as the cash flow from operations are positive it shouldn't be a problem.

[SPL]

It is a mystery to me . In England Arsenal have debts of about 500m euros but that is a bank mortgage for the new ground. Liverpool and Man u have larger debts but they are debts caused by their American owners having to obtain loans to buy the clubs.

It still needs FIFA to stop these clubs with hugh debts from buying players. No I am not holding my breath on this.

Man U are going to have difficulty buying someone as good even though he is diving sniviling scum bag

[aveslacker]

I'm not quite sure what Real Madrid's annual reports look like but there are a couple of ways it can be done.

1. Cash flow from operations. As long as RM generate more money from ticket sales, merchandise, and so on, than they have to pay on expenses (and debt payments) the available cash will increase.

2. Cash flow from desinvestments. When selling real estate (I know they did something like that in the 90's) they generate cash. As long the price is higher than the mortgage they will have more cash

3. Cash flow from financial activities. As long as anyone wants to loan Real Madrid money (and the old debtors agree) Real can get loans and more money. Issuing stock is another way to get cash (but I'm not sure if that's possible for Real Madrid).

As long as the cash flow from operations are positive it shouldn't be a problem.

Could they also collateralize their expected sale value?

Didn't Real get some sweetheart deal from the municipality that let them stay in business a few years ago? Or was that Barca?

You have to wonder how sustainable this is. Odd thing is, that $100 million won't do too much for ManU's debt, if I understand.

[ZoefdeHaas]

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/ne ... MHD=soccer

We're not alone. Soon Madrid are also set to buy Villa from Valencia.

This is pretty lame.

[DanK]

One day it will collapse in on itself and Madrid will be playing in the 3rd tier. Ahhh to dream.

[Kowalczyk]

I know Real Madrid's income must be enormous, but even then... The amount of cash they're spending on one player is pretty much the profit after winning the Champions League. And they already had approximately one billion euros of debt.

It can't be.

They have so many players. Each and every one of them makes millions of euros a year. They've had a couple of really disappointing seasons. One billion debt... A string of banks and sponsors demanding money from them.

They can't have the money. Impossible.

I seriously don't understand how this works. They must have had the money (somwehere, somehow) to pay for Ronaldo. Or did they submit a bank guarantee? If so: which bank in the world is going to guarantee another loan of 94 million euros to a relatively small company (even the biggest football clubs are relatively small companies, looking at the number of people on the payrole and the number of branches) that's already one billion in the red...?

K.

[gordonvandekamp]

Don't forget to add the €69m for Kaka.

I'm interested in how they can afford it to.

My speculation, and it is just that, is that there are banks willing to loan the club enough to cover those costs. Of course it puts the club deeper into debt overall, but they can cover immediate expenditures. Sort of like how U.S. banks were so keen to give out loans to people who couldn't realistically pay them back. I'm no banking expert, but I would guess there is a pretty complicated credit system in place. With a debt that big, if it doesn't start getting paid off, they can sustain in the short-term, but the debt will eventually catch up.

Like I said, just my speculation, but I'd also be interested in more concrete answers.

[Kowalczyk]

It's probably a bit like with mortgages. A bank will loan you up to five times your annual income, without asking too many questions. As long as you can pay the interest for that loan, you don't really have a problem - and you could buy two cars and go on three holidays, in spite of the fact that you owe the 350K or whatever it may be.

Then again: there must be a point where even a club like Real Madrid can't get any more loans and seriously run out of cash. Especially now.

Perhaps, one day, one bank will demand their money back - and then there could be some sort of a chain reaction, with a major, global 'football crisis' as a result. The Real Madrids of this world will then be the Lehmann Bros and IceSaves - and implode first. Oh well, one can always dream.

I asked one of the sports editors at the paper I work for and he did tell me that banks in Spain are under enormous pressure. The football world is so emotional over there that banks hardly dare to say 'no' to major clubs like Real Madrid. If they do, millions of people (Real fans) will instantly withdraw their savings and move to another bank. The banks are afraid to lose their customers and desperately try to keep Real Madrid happy.

K.

[aveslacker]

It's probably a bit like with mortgages. A bank will loan you up to five times your annual income, without asking too many questions. As long as you can pay the interest for that loan, you don't really have a problem - and you could buy two cars and go on three holidays, in spite of the fact that you owe the 350K or whatever it may be.

Then again: there must be a point where even a club like Real Madrid can't get any more loans and seriously run out of cash. Especially now.

Perhaps, one day, one bank will demand their money back - and then there could be some sort of a chain reaction, with a major, global 'football crisis' as a result. The Real Madrids of this world will then be the Lehmann Bros and IceSaves - and implode first. Oh well, one can always dream.

I asked one of the sports editors at the paper I work for and he did tell me that banks in Spain are under enormous pressure. The football world is so emotional over there that banks hardly dare to say 'no' to major clubs like Real Madrid. If they do, millions of people (Real fans) will instantly withdraw their savings and move to another bank. The banks are afraid to lose their customers and desperately try to keep Real Madrid happy.

K.

I also wouldn't be surprised if a big club like Real or Barca would be able to get the government to bail them out if they have to. That could make banks more likely to lend to them.

[DanK]

As I mentioned, this will have to implode one day. It might not be Real, but a big club will go belly up in England, Spain or Italy at some point, if not more than one, which will have a knock-on effect. I do not see how Real can seriously make the money back on both Kaka and Ronaldo, even with merchandise and CL football etc. And its not like they will sell them on for a higher price, no other club in their right mind would pay that amount.

It will be interesting to see what happens to some of the clubs who have billionaire owners too, especially in the current financial crisis.

There is way too much money in football, and its crazily unbalanced. It brings to mind the saying, the bigger they are they harder they fall.

[SPL]

Just read areport on goal.com that arsenal want to set up some football schools in Holland in order to pinch the best dutch kids for nothing.Dutch Fa are looking into this as they are concerned.

Someone has to stop this thieving mob asap.

[Orange14]

Just read areport on goal.com that arsenal want to set up some football schools in Holland in order to pinch the best dutch kids for nothing.Dutch Fa are looking into this as they are concerned.

Someone has to stop this thieving mob asap.

they are stalking the Feyenoord under 17 striker who did quite well in the recent tourney (can't remember his name) and I know the Rotterdam folks are none to pleased!

[Orange14]

Been in a meeting all day and am now just catching up. The Madrid facts are quite well known. they got themselves into a lot of debt following Perez's last stint as chairman when he brought in Beckham and the rest of the Galacticos. they were bailed out by the city who bought the training grounds and other assets for a sweetheart price with a leaseback to the club. I don't know if the banks were involved in this or not. I personally think they are cooking the books and since it is not a public corporation don't have to release a true P/L statement. I think all Dutch players will probably be sold off this summer, particularly if they also pick up Ribery. However, the transfer values of those players will probably drop as interested clubs will know that Madrid needs a fire sale to free up the money.

We know that Arsenal, Liverpool and ManU all are carrying big debt. Liverpool are worst off as the American owners are also in trouble over here and they may not be able to make payments on the loan in the near term. Benitez will only have funds for new players if he sells someone (which is why Babel is on the selling block) and he may not be able to keep some of the current players if the things get worse. Aresenal have the mortgage on their new stadium and a real estate development on the site of the old grounds that is in trouble because of the current financial situation. ManU's owners have a lot of money and their debt is not a problem.

the cable television sports channel Sentanta is supposed to go into receivership and that will have consequences for the English, Scottish, and French football leagues as they all derive income. the English matches will be picked up by ESPN or Sky Sports at a discount but the Scottish league will probably lose all that income. Two clubs (not named) will be in trouble as they need that income to stay solvent.

Valencia are in the biggest trouble. they missed a payroll during the season and don't have enough money to build their new stadium. David Villa and David Silva will have to be sold to cover the deficit. there are probably other clubs that are in bad shape as well and we will see more bad news in the next several months. Long winded and sorry but thought folks would be interested.

[gordonvandekamp]

Well, Perez has commented on the situation as well now. I put the relevant parts in bold:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story ... et&cc=5901

Perez: Spending will not overwhelm Real with debt

The purchase of Kaka and massive bid for Cristiano Ronaldo will not lead to Real Madrid being burdened by a huge amount of debt, new president Florentino Perez was quoted as saying on Friday.

Real were given permission to negotiate with Ronaldo after Manchester United accepted a world record bid of £80m for the Portugal winger on Thursday.

Three days earlier, Brazil playmaker Kaka joined the Spanish giants from AC Milan for a fee reported to be around £59m.

"On the contrary, we think can improve our accounts by aiming for three goals," construction magnate Perez was quoted as saying by Friday's La Gazzetta dello Sport when asked about the debt issue.

"Increasing ticket sales, increasing bank loans and increasing the club's economic value."

He added that Real generated enough revenue to cover these massive transfer market investments, with more expected to come, without him having to use his own funds.

"(The money) is exclusively the club's, not mine," said Perez, who twice broke the transfer record in taking "galacticos" Zinedine Zidane and Figo to the Bernabeu in his previous stint as president from 2000-06.

"Real Madrid takes about 400 million (euros) a year, the fruit of three sources of income - a third from ticket sales, a third from television rights and a third from merchandising."

On Friday FIFA President Sepp Blatter dismissed concerns over the value of the Ronaldo deal arguing that it demonstrated the game's enduring popularity.

Blatter has in the past spoken out about the huge sums of money in the game.

But he told a news conference in Johannesburg he saw nothing wrong with the 24-year-old FIFA World Player of the Year's proposed move from Manchester United, which is still to be finalised.

UEFA President Michel Platini said on Thursday the bid for the Portuguese winger was excessive when football was facing severe challenges during a global recession.

Other sports officials also criticised the amount. But Blatter said: "What does 80m mean when 10 years ago another player with the same name (Ronaldo of Brazil) moved from one club to another for 50m dollars?.

"It means that there is still a demand to have the stars."

Blatter added: "We are in a very sensitive market, in an economic crisis, but football remains a fantastic product, not just to buy or sell but a product that gives people what they want - emotions. They want the stars.

"Ten years ago a painting from Picasso's Blue Period was sold by Sothebys in London for over 100m. And what happened to the painting?

"They hid it somewhere so no-one could take it away. Nobody can see it. But you can see a football player once or twice a week, he is there, he is a star. You might say it is too much, but you have to put it in context of what football in our society is worth and what other things in our society are worth."

More speculation from me. If they are making 400M Euros a year I am guessing most of that is going to operating costs and not much to pay off the current debts. Of course increasing bank loans puts them further into debt overall, but works in the short-term. I too see a big implosion from a big club happening one day because of operating like these. Eventually the revenue will slow and they won't be able to pay back the loans.

I also think he meant increasing ticket prices instead of increasing ticket sales.

[aveslacker]

"Increasing ticket sales, increasing bank loans and increasing the club's economic value."

If it worked for Bernie Madoff and Alan Stanford...

[Orange14]

"Increasing ticket sales, increasing bank loans and increasing the club's economic value."

If it worked for Bernie Madoff and Alan Stanford...

I thought the best quote of the day came from Barca's Joan Laporta who said, "I don't know where the money is coming from."