World Cup 2006

[Henk de Gier]

Zidane has much more to defend Thomas, but we've been on this road before. You adore Zidane and you hate Materazzi, so in your mind Materazzi is guilty, in my eyes Zidane gave a headbust and no words can be compared to that.

[FlaFlu]

I adore Zidanes footballing abilities but I condemn his headbut. But if he was provoced in a nasty (racial) way then I can understand his behavior. And I don't hate Materazzi. I just know he is a nasty player. So we don't have to act as if he's a saint compared to Zidane. He's done more nasty things over the course of his career than Zidane.

[Henk de Gier]

nasty fouls yeah, for everyone to see. But he don't have a reputation on foul language. And please Thomas, stop the racial stuff, even Zidane denied that is was racial.

[Kowalczyk]

Zidane has much more to defend Thomas, but we've been on this road before. You adore Zidane and you hate Materazzi, so in your mind Materazzi is guilty, in my eyes Zidane gave a headbust and no words can be compared to that.

That is very remarkable, indeed. Almost everyone seems to be angry with Materazzi, primarily, which I think is totally foolish.

I mean come on: the big Guilty Man in this incident is Zidane, who suddenly gives an opponent a totally insane and scandalous headbutt, thereby destroying the end of his own career and France's chance of winning the World Cup (they weren't losing or anything; it was 1-1).

If there are any serious indications you may also investigate whether there was any provocation from the victim or not, and if so consider a penalty for him also. But the case we're dealing with here is one of the most idiotic violent actions ever seen in a World Cup final and 'the man who' was Zinedine Zidane. Whatever happens, Materazzi can never be more guilty than Zidane.

K.

[FlaFlu]

Zidane has much more to defend Thomas, but we've been on this road before. You adore Zidane and you hate Materazzi, so in your mind Materazzi is guilty, in my eyes Zidane gave a headbust and no words can be compared to that.

That is very remarkable, indeed. Almost everyone seems to be angry with Materazzi, primarily, which I think is totally foolish.

I mean come on: the big Guilty Man in this incident is Zidane, who suddenly gives an opponent a totally insane and scandalous headbutt, thereby destroying the end of his own career and France's chance of winning the World Cup (they weren't losing or anything; it was 1-1).

If there are any serious indications you may also investigate whether there was any provocation from the victim or not, and if so consider a penalty for him also. But the case we're dealing with here is one of the most idiotic violent actions ever seen in a World Cup final and 'the man who' was Zinedine Zidane. Whatever happens, Materazzi can never be more guilty than Zidane.

K.

Would you feel the same way if it turns out that Materazzi said something about Zidanes sick mother, who's in hospital. What would you have done if someone said something about a sick familymember of yours, Ko?

It's just an example of course. I hope you don't take it personally.

[Henk de Gier]

a headbust is never the right responce to a spoken word.

[FlaFlu]

By now I know your opinion. ;) I wanted to hear Ko's point of view.

[Henk de Gier]

physical violence in a response to spoken words is always wrong Thomas, and no words are worse then a headbust.

[FlaFlu]

If that's your view on things, I can only concur once again that we have a completely different view on the matter. In my opinion there are definitely things that people can say that would make a physical approach understandable.

[Henk de Gier]

you fight words with words. That's what my mama always taught me.

[SE6Ajacied]

you fight words with words. That's what my mama always taught me.

Well, I'm gonna jump in here.

I think you are talking hindsight and cold light of day here. I'm not sure I would have kept my cool if it was me who was insulted in a bad enough way (and I don't have Zidane's build or previous history of fisticuffs).

I think even Zidane would agree with your point (it's obvious unless you are some complete nut-job!) but that doesn't necessarily mean that's what happens at the time.

[Henk de Gier]

if you use physical violence after a verbal insult, then you are wrong. No doubt about that. Zidane was wrong, not Materazzi.

[FlaFlu]

There's definitely room for discussion on that, if you ask me.

[Henk de Gier]

not in my textbook, but then again, i'm not a (physical) violent kind of man, I prefer to fight my battle with words.

[SE6Ajacied]

if you use physical violence after a verbal insult, then you are wrong. No doubt about that. Zidane was wrong, not Materazzi.

....don't you mean as well as Materazzi. I'm not trying to pick at words but what you've said here seems to suggest that it is OK to say anything to anyone and if they retaliate physically then they are 100% wrong.

I know the old "Sticks and Stones can break my bones, but words can nver hurt me" playground verse (do you have that in Holland?) but we're not talking playground insults here.

I don't think anyone will argue that what Zidane did was right but we are talking degree of blame here for Materazzi (and in my opinion, if the words were bad enough then the share of blame is high)

[Kowalczyk]

Would you feel the same way if it turns out that Materazzi said something about Zidanes sick mother, who's in hospital. What would you have done if someone said something about a sick familymember of yours, Ko?

I might freak out and hit that person. I know myself well and it would be an option. It would also be an option that I just smile at him condescendingly. That's also very 'me'. I don't know.

But one thing's for sure: if I punched/headbutted him during a World Cup final and the score was 1-1, and we were actually the better side in that phase, then I would feel like a totally daft, unprofessional piece of sh*t. I would be thinking: noooo, what was that, I should have won the World Cup and then I should have done him afterwards, in the tunnel...

Back on topic now...

What surprises me the most is that everybody is already 100% anti-Materazzi, whereas there is absolutely no evidence against him so far. It's Zidane's word versus Materazzi's. What Materazzi said...? We do not know, but everybody seems to be so convinced. That is not my attitude when it comes to justice.

What strikes me is that everybody is so tremendously eager to turn away from Zidane (and give him a sort of 'moral support') and attack Materazzi instead... I wonder: would that have been the same if it had been exactly the other way round? What if Zidane had whispered something no-one could hear, and Materazzi had suddenly headbutted him down like that?

My feeling is that no-one in the world would have attacked Zidane in that case, whereas Materazzi would have been instantly declared the ultimate, #1 enemy of football and the worst a**hole/criminal in the world.

And you know why? Because Materazzi is the simple, ugly defender and Zidane is the artist. The star. great one. And it was his farewell game, too!

Now that is an irrelevant factor in a case like this - and that is what I want to say here.

I sense that people want to see Zidane's 'moral' innocence and Materazzi's guilt. They want to believe what Zidane says, out of sympathy, and they want to believe that Materazzi ("it was a pretty ordinary insult; nothing racist, nothing about his family") is a liar. Now, that's what I'm protesting against. Because it's irrational and populist.

K.

[FlaFlu]

All those things could be true, but I've been noticing the exact opposite in my surroundings and on the Dutch side of Ajaxtalk. Most people condemn Zidane and no one really pays all too much attention to what Materazzi might have said.

[Cedric]

I sense that people want to see Zidane's 'moral' innocence and Materazzi's guilt. They want to believe what Zidane says, out of sympathy, and they want to believe that Materazzi ("it was a pretty ordinary insult; nothing racist, nothing about his family") is a liar.

I don't think in Italy they think the same :D .I'd say they just want to forget the whole incident, because no one cares about their victory anymore... :headbang: It is overshadowed by the farewell game of Zidane.

But excepted this case, I think you're true but it's easily understandable and I don't really condemn it. As you said, Zidane is the artist and Materazzi an ugly defender, and I would add a stupid man. Everything he has said since the incident smells stupidity ("I don't know what is a terrorist"... :eusa_liar: What a joke. )

Every player who acts like Zidane must be punished, *but* Materazzi first pulls his shirt (in theory, that's a penalty), then, after what is supposedly an arrogant remark by Zidane (...), he insults Zidane. That's 2 fouls against 0. And if he really insulted Zidane repeatedly (and I tend to believe that), well, there's nothing much to do for him :redcard:
Then Zidane does the justice by himself (that's a bit childish, but he could have hit the head btw :yes: ) : :redcard: Both must be punished, that's all....

Right know, it's not fair because only Zidane is punished (it migh change ). It means that he is the bad boy and Materazzi is right. No ! Materazzi is guilty too.

[jakobg]

Come on guys. These insults happends many times a game, for sure. Materazzi is probably a huge asshole, but so are many others on a football pitch.

The only one to blame here is Zinedine Zidane. He friggin' headbutted an opponent in the WC final. That's the most stupid thing to do, no matter what has been said during the game. If Materazzi should be punished for this, then 100 others in this WC should be punished as well.

I thought Zidane was a smart guy. I don't anymore.

[Cedric]

Come on guys. These insults happends many times a game, for sure. Materazzi is probably a huge asshole, but so are many others on a football pitch.

The only one to blame here is Zinedine Zidane. He friggin' headbutted an opponent in the WC final. That's the most stupid thing to do, no matter what has been said during the game. If Materazzi should be punished for this, then 100 others in this WC should be punished as well.

Maybe I'm an idealist but it shouldn't be allowed to insult a player (as well as to dive, etc...), that's all.
It's a bit like the previous discussion about diving : "Everyone else is doing it so it's fine" : No, it's not fine with me...

[SPL]

Zidane was provoked, but for headbutting someone like that he is the guilty party.

If he was not retiring I would be looking at giving him a long suspension from the game. Why??? Because of the example to kids.

Kids watching that game now know that if someone says something to them they should match it with violence.

It is a sorry end to a great career and sadly the final will be known for his actions for ever. The competition will of course be remembered for diving and cheating.

Thank god we will not have to put up with another WC for 4 years and can get back to something far more important, Ajax 's season .

PS on the subject of divers Kuyt looks to have played his last game for the FWord.

[Venezuelan Ajacied]

Come on guys. These insults happends many times a game, for sure. Materazzi is probably a huge asshole, but so are many others on a football pitch.

The only one to blame here is Zinedine Zidane. He friggin' headbutted an opponent in the WC final. That's the most stupid thing to do, no matter what has been said during the game. If Materazzi should be punished for this, then 100 others in this WC should be punished as well.

Maybe I'm an idealist but it shouldn't be allowed to insult a player (as well as to dive, etc...), that's all.
It's a bit like the previous discussion about diving : "Everyone else is doing it so it's fine" : No, it's not fine with me...

The problem Cedric is that there is no way to stop it, what should players do? go tell the ref every time they are insulted ?? Besides trash talk is part of the game, every game for that matter (at least team sports). I think Zidanes actions were wrong, if he was really arrogant against Materazzi then he should have stayed that way and maybe just answer back. And if the insult was too great to stand then he should have been smarter and waited for a proper chance to retaliate and try to catch him when they were a lot of players around like a corner kick or something, not in open field :nooo: .

[Amol]

Maybe I'm an idealist but it shouldn't be allowed to insult a player (as well as to dive, etc...), that's all.
It's a bit like the previous discussion about diving : "Everyone else is doing it so it's fine" : No, it's not fine with me...

It's funny how when you relate these things with the real world. Let's say someone insults someone's mother & the other guy has a gun. So according to the zidane philosophy, he shoots the other guy in his knee.

His defense - the other guy insulted him. Give me a break. I'm not even talking about the fact that it was the frigging WORLD CUP final and there's millions of kids watching.

[Cedric]

The problem Cedric is that there is no way to stop it, .

Well, when you have evidence, you can punish the player afterwards. In this case, it wouldn't be too difficult.... Not punishing Materazzi would mean : 'ok, you can insult a player as you want to make him insane'. That's not a great message too.
Of course, and I think I said it enough already, Zidane must also be punished ....

It's funny how when you relate these things with the real world. Let's say someone insults someone's mother & the other guy has a gun. So according to the zidane philosophy, he shoots the other guy in his knee.

In case you hadn't noticed, the "Zidane philosophy" seems to lead the world, unfortunately... But luckily, it's not every citizen that can have a gun on the street and there are some laws to punish those who react badly but also those who provoke when you can prove it.

His defense - the other guy insulted him. Give me a break. I'm not even talking about the fact that it was the frigging WORLD CUP final and there's millions of kids watching.

Did I say he was right ? No. Maybe that's understantable, in the context (110', end of world cup, lot of pressure, etc...) but that's not his job to do justice and no one have to react like this. He was punished, he will be punished (i think), and that's normal... But it's not normal to insult a player and then become an innocent hero.

[Over Pasanens Head]

Apparently the goading that made Zidane go ballistic was that Materazzi stated that the only team that Zidane was good enough for nowadays was Feyenoord. I mean, who would have walked away from that provocation. :D