The Ajax club crest

[The Purple Cow]

I completely agree with Per.

But I don't think that the logo is really what this debate is actually about.

The point is that many fans feel that they have lost emotional attachment to Ajax - the club. Perhaps because of the move to the ArenA, or perhaps because of the floating of Ajax N.V. or perhaps (and more likely I think) because of both of those things, people now feel distanced from the club. They think that by getting the old fashioned logo back, they will turn ajax into a cuddly little 'volksclub' again that they can feel part of.

In a sense the whole 'Joden' debate is also the same argument, it's about fans wanting to BELONG again. Even if Ajax don't give the fans their old logo back (and they won't), they have to start seeing the big picture, and the club has to find a way to make an emotional connection with their fans again.

[Eric]

No surprise... I mean: the guy is from the country that gave the world IKEA. What could he know about tasteful design?

:cheer: :eusa_dance:

K.

Oooooer... bad idea to fuck with IKEA.

;)

[Kowalczyk]

Spot on, Purple Cow.

The logo and the 'joden' thing are just symbols in a struggle that really is about something bigger: identity, culture. In a way (and I know I might be stretching your argument beyond breaking point here) the Ajax supporters are fighting the same war as The Netherlands as a whole. They basically feel that things have gone a little bit too fast - and that they're losing grip.

At Ajax things have gone very fast. There's no denying that. The Champions League win (which made Ajax a big club again) and the management trying to cash in on that as quickly as possible: the move to the ArenA, the decision to list the club at the Stock Exchange (and sell Ajax stock), the international 'expansion plans' (Ghana, Belgium, South-Africa, America).

The people that love the club Ajax felt that they couldn't keep up with it and that the Ajax they once knew was slipping out of their fingers. The logo is a symbol - in more than just one way.

Having made that clear, there's two things Ajax can do:

1. conclude that the fans who want the old logo back are a bunch of romantic little kids, who ask for something that is completely irrational -- and ignore them.

2. conclude that something somehow has gone seriously wrong and that the 'stakeholders' (e.g. the naive ones who simply love Ajax -- like us) are actually at least as important as the shareholders and that Ajax really must reach out to them before it's too late.

A smart manager would go for option #2. Arie van Eijden, on the other hand, will probably vaguely admit a few thingies from #2, pat the supporters at the back and smile at them condescendingly. But at the same time he will be thinking... (insert #1). If you know what I mean.

K.

[Real Ajax]

But I don't think that the logo is really what this debate is actually about.

Well, on some level for some fans yes. On the other hand there are esthetes (like me) who care about details, who also hate it when the red of the shirt is fucked with or the red band is broken. So yeah this can be excessive, but if you care about beauty in the way the game is played it isn't too far a stretch to care about how your team looks (impressive instead of a bunch of jokers.) And those choices aren't exactly irrational.

[Kowalczyk]

On the other hand there are esthetes (like me) who care about details, who also hate it when the red of the shirt is fucked with or the red band is broken.

Yeah, I acknowledge that. I actually belong to that category of fans myself, to a certain extent. I really hate it when the new away jersey turns out to be hideous, when the red bar of the home jersey is interrupted by a white shoulder (2002-2003) or when Adidas stripes suddenly appear on our historic home kit (2000-2001).

I am totally like that. Very much a purist.

I like the old logo better than the new one and I feel it should never have been replaced in the first place. However, I do not think the new logo is 'ugly' as such, and I find it a little bit childish to refer to it as a 'smurf'. It does look a bit like a smurf, dunnit? With the helmet and all... But that was already the case with the old logo. The kids at my school who supported Feyenoord actually used to say it back in the 1980s: that our Greek warrior Ajax looked like 'Grote Smurf'. And that was the old logo, mind you.

I have sympathy for this 'old logo campaign' (a lot of sympathy), but to me it's not a matter of life and death, to be honest.

K.

[The Purple Cow]

Good analysis Ko.

Here's the thing though. If you are ambitious for your club, and you want it to succeed at the highest level, you have to grow. These days only big clubs with big budgets have a realistic chance of winning the C.L. So if you want to play with the big boys, how do you achieve that growth to tipping-point size, without losing the essential bond with your supporters?

This is surely the great skull-cracking problem that major football clubs are (or should be) trying to deal with.

In a sense clubs and supporters enter into a core emotional contract. The terms of this contract say that the fans will love the club unconditionaly, turn out to watch and support their team wherever they are playing, at whatever the cost, and whatever the weather. And of course they will buy yet another away-shirt when asked to do so. In return for this commitment the club has to provide the fans with something they can attach their tribal longings to, something they are proud of, and will become part of their identity as a human being. 'My team helps define what makes me the human being, I am.'

In other words, with something to love.

It's this last point that many clubs (not just AJAX) have lost track of. Look at Manchester United, for Christ's sake. Glazer has brought the club, and used the club's own money to do it. It's like someone comes to your house and says...

"I've just brought this house it now belongs to me, so now you have to move out. Oh and by the way I've borrowed the money on your mortgage, so it's you that owes the half a billion quid. Have a nice day."

Glazer has shown an almost total disregard for the fans, their feelings, and above all their emotional attachment to the club. He will pay dearly for this mistake, but unfortunatly so will the fans

I don't know off the top of my head, of any top European club that has got this right. Where you have clubs that seem to have an emotional bond with their fans, there is some other force - outside of football, at play.

Such as...

Celtic - Catholic
Rangers - Protestant

Liverpool - Protestant
Everton - Catholic

Milan - Left wing politics
Inter - Right wing politics

This I think is what the f-Siders have been trying to build with the whole 'Joden' thing - a reason to believe. To belong.

As Ko has said so well, Ajax need to learn this lesson and learn it quickly.

What should be the fans reason to love Ajax? If not the logo, if not 'Joden' then what?

[Real Ajax]

What should be the fans reason to love Ajax?

Yeah excellent argument and this question really should be one of the core questions (the other one of course how can Ajax, within reason, not lose touch with say The Big Clubs? I always fear Ajax will go the way of Spurs, just be missing a step at a crucial moment...and then never recover.)

But yeah the involvement of fans with Ajax at the moment doesn't look to hot. I mean the young guys really try to do their thing but the majority is decadent, spoiled, going through the motions.

Anyway I agree, with Ko that of course the crest isn't a matter of life and death, but saying there are more important matters is an easy way out. Yeah there are, but then you can say there are more important matters than football, etc, etc, and in the end everything becoms meaningless. ;)

[Eric]

Spot on.
The board should realise that it is not about the logo. It's about reclaiming a piece of the club by supporters who are feeling more and more alienated from it. The logo represents the emotion, the nostalgia, the heart of the club. Under the same circumstances but the old logo, people would have focussed on the team jersey or ArenA stadium for that matter.

[The Purple Cow]

" I always fear Ajax will go the way of Spurs..."

<Shudder>

[Kowalczyk]

What should be the fans reason to love Ajax? If not the logo, if not 'Joden' then what?

Right. Here's my wish list:

1. The jersey
It really is the most beautiful football strip in the world, of course :yes: No f*cking doubt about it. It's holy. Don't touch it and absolutely never allow some Adidas twat to put stripes on the sleeves. Out of the question. Even commercially that would be the best approach. Imagine this: Adidas present a new home jersey. Ajax issue a press statement, saying: 'Ajax have rejected the new Adidas home shirt, because the club feel that it is absolutely unacceptable that there are stripes on the sleeves'. The fans will love the club for that (because it is a bit of a rebel statement against a commercial party that thinks they're in The Boss; Dutchies totally dig that). Adidas come up with a new version of the shirt (piece of cake for them; they really couldn't care less). It will automatically be the Ajax 'rebel shirt' and sales will go through the roof.

2. Approach to the game/style of play
Keyword: 4-3-3. Offensive, fast passing, wingers, focus on skill and sassiness. The 'Ajax way'. This is a crucial thing. Many true Ajax supporters really and sincerely prefer to see Ajax lose 'the Ajax way' than to see them win the 'Koeman way'. Even after the 2002-2003 season there was grumbling: "So, this was one hell of a ride in the CL, but next year we want to see some proper footie!"

3. Youth
The Amsterdam crowd want to see Ajax kids. They will stand up, embrace and encourage a 17 year-old from the youth system, who makes his début, sassily takes on his opponent the first time he gets the ball and makes him look silly, even if it's just for one second and utterly ineffective. Big foreign purchases are welcomed with a "so, who the f*ck's this then?" kind of attitude. The Amsterdam crowd will always instinctively wonder: didn't we have one of that calibre at De Toekomst?

4. History
Ajax fans have a very strong belief in the future (see point #3), but also a very strong sense of tradition and history ('when we was fab'). Give 'em something to be nostalgic about every once in a while. Provide them with an occasion to tell each other the good ol' stories, even if it's a bit of a tacky idea like the 'Johan Cruyff - 30 Years of European Finals' event.

5. Amsterdam
Ajax fans want Amsterdam culture! It's Ajax Amsterdam. We want terrible Amsterdam pub singers: not the ones from the Surprise Bar or the Cool Down Café that do party music with a cheap techno beat, but 'old skool' Amsterdam pub singers. If Ajax can't find one to perform live (or a living one in the first place): just play a CD of old tunes. Manke Nelis, Johnny Hoes, Bolle Jan, Johnny Jordaan, Willy Alberti. Good old Mokum. It will do the job. Even Ajax supporters who are not from Amsterdam want it: they want to feel a bit like an Amsterdammer when they visit Ajax.

6. Family atmosphere
We all want Ajax to be a big club, but Dutchies in general and Amsterdammers in particular like cosiness and a down-to-earth attitude. Ajax can be a big company, that's not the problem, but try to make the fans feel at home. Hire people who are good at remembering faces and who know how to chat with a supporter. Nancy of the Supporters Desk is very good at that: she's smart and professional, but also totally the girl next door. I don't expect her to hug and kiss every F-Sider that shows up at her desk, but she instinctively understands that "Hey, hi, what can I do for you?" works better than "Next customer please." If you know what I mean. Professionalism and a 'family atmosphere' are not necessarily mutually exclusive. They would go hand in hand if I ran the place...

;)

K.

[Eric]

I would rather have a kiss and hug from Nancy, than from you Ko....

sorry mate ;)

[Kowalczyk]

Do you know what a terrible, terrible bastard you are...?

;)

K.

[Frans]

What should be the fans reason to love Ajax? If not the logo, if not 'Joden' then what?

2. Approach to the game/style of play
Keyword: 4-3-3. Offensive, fast passing, wingers, focus on skill and sassiness. The 'Ajax way'. This is a crucial thing. Many true Ajax supporters really and sincerely prefer to see Ajax lose 'the Ajax way' than to see them win the 'Koeman way'. Even after the 2002-2003 season there was grumbling: "So, this was one hell of a ride in the CL, but next year we want to see some proper footie!"

Surely this is the core reason that anyone would support Ajax. I think the views of the 'foreign' supporters are most eloquently stated on Ajax-USA, under 'Why Ajax?' People fall in love with Ajax because of the football. They may then take the logo and the jersey to heart, but they love Ajax for the football.

[Real Ajax]

Not so sure about the Amsterdam music, Ko. :D And I'm an Amsterdammer. I think music in football is a bad idea (and i lovvvvve music, but not when i'm going to a footie game.)

Family atmosphere? If you mean, which i think you do, that fans aren't treated as cattle/anonymous consumers I agree. But i has some associasions with that ***** "we want a Disney feel" story they were trying to push when the Arena opened. The thing I like about going to De Meer as a kid was that it was full of grumpy geezers, extremly funny and loud Amsterdammers, and loads of dopesmokers. Actually connects nicely with the Amsterdam thing, that for me still is the perfect image of the Amsterdam experience.

[pizza 5]

Yo Ko,

I really like your proposals and thoughts,and I would be fully supportive of any intentions you have to take over the club in the future.The only point I dont agree on is the 4-3-3 system.This was great when we had world class players working a system and I loved it as much as the next guy.This however is 2005 and we have to make the best of what we have now and a 3-5-2 formation would suit the players we have now much better.We will never make any impression in Europe with 4-3-3 as we get overrun in midfield and our wingers are not so good at beating a full back and getting a cross in.......anyway you have heard me on this rant before so I will shut up now.

By the way ,isnt it great about whats happeneing to Man.u.Glazer is really shagging them up the arse...its great.

[SE6Ajacied]

By the way ,isnt it great about whats happeneing to Man.u.Glazer is really shagging them up the arse...its great.

;)

[SE6Ajacied]

Yo Ko,

Wasn't she married to John Lennon? :headbang:

[Blind3]

I agree with Ko on everything except losing with flair v. winning ugly.Ajax lose? I'd rather catch my foot in a bear trap than see them lose X'C or read of them losing.