The 'Jewish Issue'

[Philippe]

so the board does not want Ajax supporters to call them selves "jews" any more ? what do F siders think of this ?

Ajax wil verder overleg over afschaffen van het Joodse imago

Bron: AJAX.nl

Onlangs heeft Ajax aangekondigd dat de club af wil van het Joodse imago. Nationaal en internationaal heeft dat in de media de nodige aandacht gekregen. Via deze weg willen wij ons standpunt verduidelijken.

De paradox dat wij zogenaamd een Jodenclub zijn, maar dat Joden het in veel gevallen, als gevolg van de zeer kwetsende reacties, moeilijk vinden om onze thuiswedstrijden, laat staan uitwedstrijden, te bezoeken moet van tafel.
Ajax wordt wel eens geafficheerd als 'Jodenclub'. Als gevolg daarvan gebruikt een deel van de Ajax-supporters 'Joden' als geuzennaam. Ajax wil duidelijk stellen dat de club weet dat de eigen aanhang geen anti-semitische gevoelens of gedachten heeft bij het scanderen van de het woord ‘Joden’. Tevens wil Ajax, hopelijk ten overvloede, benadrukken dat deze wens om het gebruik van de geuzennaam 'Joden' te stoppen, geen anti-semitische achtergrond heeft. Het blijkt dat de geuzennaam 'Joden' wel anti-semitische reacties oproept. Zeker in een samenleving met de spanningen van vandaag. ‘Joden’ heeft nu eenmaal een andere maatschappelijke en historische lading dan bijvoorbeeld de 'Superboeren'.

Wanneer gesproken wordt over kwetsend, dan wordt er meestal gedacht aan kwetsend voor spelers of aanhang van de tegenpartij. In dit geval echter kwetst de reactie op de geuzennaam ook een groot deel van onze eigen aanhang, die zich niet schaart achter de geuzennaam 'Joden'. Vele mensen, en daarvoor hoef je niet Joods te zijn, storen zich zeer aan deze situatie en de uitwassen daarvan.

Als echte Amsterdamse club heeft Ajax historisch gezien banden met de Joodse gemeenschap. Net zoals vele andere clubs in onze hoofdstad kent en kende Ajax Joodse voetballers, bestuurders, vrijwilligers en supporters. En daar is Ajax trots op. Net zoals wij trots zijn op al onze leden, supporters en vrijwilligers en op het belang van Ajax voor de gehele Amsterdamse gemeenschap.

Wij weten dat dit geen gemakkelijk onderwerp is. Ajax beseft ook dat het niet meer gebruiken van deze geuzennaam bij de harde kern-supporters ook emoties oproept. Het betreft immers een deel van hun identiteit en verbondenheid met de club. Het is te gemakkelijk om die gevoelens simpel weg te wuiven. Toch doen wij een beroep op onze supporters om voor dit beleid open te staan en met ons mee te denken.

Om het doel te bereiken zal Ajax spoedig praten met een representatieve groep Ajacieden.

[carcajou]

so the board does not want Ajax supporters to call them selves "jews" any more ? what do F siders think of this ?

Dunno. I guess they don't like to be lectured by the board, and will stick to that "Super Joden" thing. The problem in my opinion is how the real Jews feel about it. I read in "Brilliant Orange" by David Winner, that some old Jews, who faced horror during W W II don't like it much.

Wait and see.

[Kowalczyk]

Bertrand, my man, it's good to see you here! How've you been?

:xyxthumbs:

I have re-named this thread the Jewish Issue thread. It's been a hot issue in recent weeks (in a way it's always been), so let's give it a try and create a place for discussions about it. This thread, to be precise.

However, more than in any other thread I want to urge everyone to behave themselves and don't cross any lines. If it gets out of hand this one will be closed down and deleted.

[mr_cooper]

I think that here in israel, people will continou to support ajax. to see israelies flags inside the arena was very nice for us, but its made a lot of problems with other teams supporters.

[BPBlueSox]

I think it's a foolish that this is even an issue.

I thought the timing on this was kind of poor right before the whole Holocaust remembrance ceremonies.

[Monkey Tonk]

We had a long, sometimes heated discussion about this in the Dutch section. A brief summary.

The Jewish population in Amsterdam was placed at around 10%, which was assumed to be about the same at Ajax; just a ballpark figure, but clearly a minority.

Many Ajax fans don't feel any connection with the Jewish thing, which, by the way, only started in the 1980's. Others feel it has become a name synonymous with Ajax, that should be seen separate from any connection to the Jews. A small group actually believes Ajax is indeed primarily a Jewish club, even though there is nothing to support this notion. In other words, the Ajax fans are divided among themselves about this. That is one thing, but probably not the most important...

In response to 'Joden' chants, fans from opposing teams chant terrible slogans that refer directly to the Holocaust, including hissing sounds to imitate the sound of escaping gas. (The hatred between hardcore soccer fans in European countries is something Americans might find hard to imagine.) To sidestep the unnecessary, and very public controversy Ajax has asked its supporters to let it go. To be the wiser party, so to speak.

Some of us who discussed the issue felt that 'Godenzonen' (sons of god) would be a better nickname for Ajax than 'Joden'. This is a far more playful name, that relates directly to our 'divine' type of soccer. And yes, our middle fingers would welcome the inevitable complaints from the religious right. ;)

In my own opinion people come to sports games to get away from the real world for a while, not to be reminded of either the Holocaust or the never ending troubles in the Middle East. So, thumbs up to the Ajax board for bringing this up! :xyxthumbs:

[BPBlueSox]

Thanks for the summary. :)

[carcajou]

We had a long, sometimes heated discussion about this in the Dutch section. A brief summary [.....]

You're true. "Godenzonen" kicks much more ass. I'd love it if all the fans could use it forever.

[Philippe]

for many years now Ajax supporters have been calling themselves "joden" ("jews"), and are using the David star as their symbol, especially the hard core fans; for instance let's remember the excellent Der Ajax Ster (the Ajax star) fanzine for the critical fans; one also has to know that the Amsterdam local slang is often made of yiddish words, such as "Mokum", widely used to name the city of Amsterdam, or "Mazzel" to say bye;
should Ajax fans change their nickname because of a minority of racist idiots ? who is rulling who ?
let's stay who we are, and fuck the racists

(The title to this thread was changed without my consent. I never posted anything called the “jewish issue”, which I find inadequate, but “Super Joden” )

[ajaxusa]

CBN.com – AMSTERDAM, The Netherlands – There is a famous soccer team in Amsterdam called Ajax. It's taken on the unusual nickname of "the Jews" and "SuperJews" because of the team's Dutch-Jewish history.


Full article on CBN.com

[Arthur]

[...]A Eurobarometer poll by the European Union found that almost two-thirds of Europeans believe that Israel is the greatest threat to world peace.[...]

I always find it annoying that legitimate criticism towards the state of Israel is often so easily labeled "anti-semitism".

While it might be true that real anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe, I think discrimination towards muslims is growing much and much faster.

[666]

This 'Ajax' story comes from CBN, The Christian Broadcasting Network. CBN is a toy of televangelist Pat Robertson, and ultra-right religious drivel is oozing out of every page on that site. It's no surprise that they abuse the current issues at Ajax for their own sick agenda.

@ajaxusa: to avoid future confusion, when you post a link like this it's a good idea to add a one-line explanation so non-americans won't confuse it with a serious news source.

[ajaxusa]

This 'Ajax' story comes from CBN, The Christian Broadcasting Network. CBN is a toy of televangelist Pat Robertson, and ultra-right religious drivel is oozing out of every page on that site. It's no surprise that they abuse the current issues at Ajax for their own sick agenda.

You know, I had the same thought. But I read the article fairly closely, and I didn't find anything unusually (compared to mainstream media outlets) subjective or misleading about the article. It has the usual approximations and simplifications about just how Jewish Ajax really is, as well as the motivations of the fans yelling 'Hamas! Hamas!' etc. But nothing worse than what you'd read in a similar article in, say, the Wall Street Journal or SF Chronicle.

I'm in complete agreement with you on the agenda of Pat Robertson and CBN... but is there something in THIS article that you think disqualifies it as serious journalism, other than the place it was published? I'm not niggling; it's a serious question. What do you think?

@ajaxusa: to avoid future confusion, when you post a link like this it's a good idea to add a one-line explanation so non-americans won't confuse it with a serious news source.

I'm not sure whether I agree with that. If I post a link to a news article and identify the source, seems like any more than that would be too subjective on MY part. I am in the habit of 'researching' a news source if I care about the content. For instance, if someone posted a link about morality and consent on the the NMBLA website (National Man-Boy Love Association, a group of pedophiles), and I had never heard of NMBLA, I would look around the site before taking the content at face value. And then I would decide that the content is not to be taken seriously. I guess I just like to assume that serious readers always do that.

[666]

I didn't find anything unusually (compared to mainstream media outlets) subjective or misleading about the article (...) but is there something in THIS article that you think disqualifies it as serious journalism, other than the place it was published? I'm not niggling; it's a serious question. What do you think?

The selection of people they choose to quote says it all. A hardcore rabbi, some french jews heading for Israel, a few spokespersons for jewish organizations. Do these people reflect the wide variety of opinions among european jews? Or europeans in general? It's like backing a story on the dangers of gun control by interviewing six random members of the NRA.

Ajax has the 'honor' of playing the starring role in the opening lines. Did CBN ask anyone at Ajax about the why and how of the local stadium folklore? That's what a serious journalist would have done.

Most of their target audience has probably never heard of a football team called Ajax. This story is likely to make them believe the Amsterdam Arena is a battlefield filled with jew-bashing muslim fundamentalists, and Europe is in the middle of an exodus, with all european jews fleeing to the holy land en masse to escape the bloodshed on the streets of Paris, London, and Amsterdam.

And this is exactly what CBN wants them to believe.

Germany is among the safest countries in the world for jews. It's among the safest countries on the planet for anyone. Israel is one of the the most dangerous places to be for jews and everyone else. Fleeing from Europe to Israel for security? That's what I'd call irony. But that obviously doesn't match CBNs agenda so it's conveniently left out of the story.

Enough ammo to shoot any claim of 'serious journalism.' I'm sure AjaxTalks semi-american trainee journalist from Hofstra U, NY, can point out all the journalism ethics violated by CBN in what they claim to be a balanced, unbiased report.

Steef, wake up!

[ajaxusa]

Ajax has the 'honor' of playing the starring role in the opening lines. Did CBN ask anyone at Ajax about the why and how of the local stadium folklore? That's what a serious journalist would have done.

I've read a lot of English-language press about the subject of Ajax and the Jews (pretty much everything printed on the subject, I think), and you give the general journalistic community WAY too much credit on that one. The same article, written for most mainstream news outlets, would not take the time to solicit comments from Ajax officials or fans to qualify a pithy intro paragraph. Just doesn't happen.

That said, I think you're right about the tone, the apocolyptic focus, etc. Your comments help to cast the article in a different light, certainly. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

[Philippe]

Totally agree with 666.
I did not know what was CBN at all, so I had to look on the internet to find out.
The issue about “ajax joden” is not about religion, it’s about racism. People in Europe are for a large part of the population atheists (around 40% in northern Europe), and that’s a big difference with the USA.
And I suspect that if the “Ajax joden” name has become a sensitive issue, it’s because of the current situation of immigration in Holland, especially with Muslims who might not feel comfortable with Israeli flags.
I would never have called this thread “the jewish issue”
Enough said.
Let’s close the subject.

[Kowalczyk]

I would never have called this thread “the jewish issue”

You've said that a few times now - and I truly and honestly don't see the problem. This is the place to discuss the alleged 'Jewishness' of Ajax: is Ajax a 'Jewish club' or not - and everything that's got to do with it. It's a discussion about alleged 'Jewishness' and it's also an 'issue'.

So what's wrong with the thread title The 'Jewish Issue'? It is accurate and 100% objective. It's a totally 'general', neutral and appropriate name for the thread. Not painful to anyone. It's a discussion about the ongoing 'issue of alleged Jewishness' of Ajax.

The discussion so far has been very interesting (almost academic, in fact) and of high quality. Keep it up.

K.

[Philippe]

I do not think this is about Jews as a religion. As simple as that.

[Monkey Tonk]

Somebody please tell Pat Robinson we are the Sons of God, before he starts wiping his evangelical ass with Jewish tissue.

[Kowalczyk]

I do not think this is about Jews as a religion. As simple as that.

You are absolutely right. I totally agree. There is no religious, political or racial connotation to the whole thing. And the thread title doesn't suggest that! The title claims nothing more than that there is a certain 'issue' in Ajax culture about alleged 'Jewishness'. Which is a fact. And this is the place to discuss it. That's all.

Whether the whole thing is about the Jewish religion, or the Jewish race, or both, or none of the two...? That's exactly what you can discuss in this topic, but there surely is nothing wrong with the title. It can't be more 'open' and 'general'.

K.

[jmh]

I am an orthodox Jew who just moved from NY via Montreal to Jerusalem. I have supported Ajax for many years, and I am planning on going on the Ajax USA trip this March to see Ajax play and also tour Amsterdam.

The whole Jewish Issue does not bother me in the least, and I would be one who you would call right wing, with views on Israel & Judaism.

The title of teh thread does not bother me, seeing Israeli flags at the games excites me. It gives me a sense of Belonging. More than I can say for let's say Barcelona where at last night's Euroleague game vs Mac TA someone ran on the court with a Palestinian flag. I am sure the Palestinian supporters were happy, just as I am happy to see the Israeli flags in Amsterdam.

I have been to Poland on a Trip called "The March of the Living" where every year or so 5000 jewish youths come back to Poland and tour the concentration and death camps and also see historic Jewish cemetaries and syanagogues. Let me tell you, the Polish people gave us the dirtiest looks around and didn't want to relive some pretty bad history in their countries life. But meanwhile, we also pumped in millions of $$ into their economy. The positives from the trip were enormous from experiencing where many of many family were murdered, to seeing great Rabbis graves.

I was in France leading a trip of 15 teens 13 years ago and we were attacked on the Metro by skinheads, we wore our yamulkes and we unfortunately paid a heavy price, I was able to save a kid who was getting beaten, but I was pretty wacked up by the end. People saw this was happening and not one person came to help us, they stood around and laughed. I then had to counsel these kids who were pretty emotionally beat up by the whole experience. Again the positives were there as well, I made a life long friend on the trip and was able to see one of Europes top countries.

The truth is, religion and Politics DO NOT BELONG IN SPORTS, but fact is that they do, and they exist in all of society, so we can take the positives from it and stay away from the negatives.

[carcajou]

I do not think this is about Jews as a religion. As simple as that.

You are absolutely right. I totally agree. There is no religious, political or racial connotation to the whole thing. And the thread title doesn't suggest that! The title claims nothing more than that there is a certain 'issue' in Ajax culture about alleged 'Jewishness'. Which is a fact. And this is the place to discuss it. That's all.

Whether the whole thing is about the Jewish religion, or the Jewish race, or both, or none of the two...? That's exactly what you can discuss in this topic, but there surely is nothing wrong with the title. It can't be more 'open' and 'general'.

K.

No please.... Don't use the expression Jewish "race"...

Human races just don't exist on a scientific point of view to begin with, and besides "Jew" is a religion, so even I were deep in that racialism bull crap, I could understand that even black people or people from South America could be Jews...

I'm sure you KNOW that there is no Jewish race or even different races in the Human specy, but I hope you understand my point.

We should never forget (for example) that the reason why black people are black is because Darwinist evolution favoured the part of the people living there a few million years ago that had the more melanin in their skin
and could thus bear huge amount of UV.... Simple as that.

This is a very boring and academical post, but I HAD to do it in such a topic, hope you don't mind.

[Kowalczyk]

No please.... Don't use the expression Jewish "race"... Human races just don't exist on a scientific point of view to begin with, and besides "Jew" is a religion.

I know!

I used that word because a few posts above mine someone claimed that the whole Jewish issue thing at Ajax is not about religion, but about 'racism' (which suggests that this person thinks the Jews are a race - which they're not).

Once again: religion, race (?), none of the two, or both - feel free to discuss it here. We were just talking about the name of this thread, which Philippe for some mysterious reason has a problem with.

K.

[carcajou]

No please.... Don't use the expression Jewish "race"... Human races just don't exist on a scientific point of view to begin with, and besides "Jew" is a religion.

I know!

I used that word because a few posts above mine someone claimed that the whole Jewish issue thing at Ajax is not about religion, but about 'racism' (which suggests that this person thinks the Jews are a race - which they're not).

Once again: religion, race (?), none of the two, or both - feel free to discuss it here. We were just talking about the name of this thread, which Philippe for some mysterious reason has a problem with.

K.

OK... So we agree again..... See you next round, Pot !!!

:D :D :D

[Kowalczyk]

See you next round, Pot !!!

That's Monsieur Pot for you! :redcard:

K.