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The 'Jewish Issue'

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Postby Eric » Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:28 pm

Especially for Philippe who is having a hard time with his sight apparantly...

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Postby Kowalczyk » Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:30 pm

The translation of the Le Monde article, made by our man Carcajou, is now up on Ajax USA as an installment in the grab bag of articles we call From The Desk Of....

Here you go:

http://www.ajax-usa.com/desk/ajax-and-t ... issue.html

Carcajou: thanks again for translating this, mate. You tha man! :xyxthumbs:

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Postby Kowalczyk » Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:34 pm

Eric wrote:I think Ko (and more people) have still a too romantic image of 'Zuid' which is based on lesser facts as time passes.

That is bollocks. I don't have any image of 'Zuid' (the South, or F-Side, stand of the ArenA) whatsoever. Neither a romantic one nor a very bad one.

Anyway - now that the evidence is there: this is disgusting. Deeply embarrassing. I hope they'll catch them fascist morons.

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Postby SPL » Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:58 pm

A very interesting article I would just like to say thanks to Bertrand for translating.
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Postby carcajou » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:22 pm

SPL wrote:A very interesting article I would just like to say thanks to Bertrand for translating.


It's the least one can do for his community, right ?

My pleasure, anyway.
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Postby Philippe » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:55 pm

Eric wrote:Especially for Philippe who is having a hard time with his sight apparantly...

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for some reason, here on my computer at work ( ;) tie picture does not appear, only a cross in a box; could you rather post the link ?

I have a very positive opinion about the F-Side, so I am very curious
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Postby sonicdream » Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:44 pm

Bertrand - great job in that translation! - it was a good read :yes:
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Postby ajaxusa » Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:27 pm

Fans incite a race row over Jews nickname

(Telegraph.co.uk)

Nothing new here.
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Reply to Braunsta

Postby Kowalczyk » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:35 am

Right. Our new friend Aaron, a.k.a. Braunsta, started a thread in which he wrote a few things about the Jewish thing. I will reply to them here...

Braunsta wrote:And just for the record, what offends me is that Ajax wants its supporters to stop calling themselves Jewish

Hang on... It's the Ajax board (or management, if you wish) who want us to stop calling ourselves Jews. Not for anti-Semitic reasons, but basically because it elicits pretty disguating anti-Semitic chants from opponents' supporters. The Ajax supporters do not want to shed their nickname - no way.
Braunsta wrote:... instead of having the balls to stand up and fight agains the people that are making the anti semitic remarks.

Believe me: the Ajax supporters do fight those peeps if they get the chance. Quite literally, I might add. Not as much because we're 'pro-Jewish' and the opposing fans are 'anti-Jewish' (there is no political/religious connotation to the whole thing, to be honest), but simply because their hooligan enemies.

By the way, if you're interested, you might want to read this on our website:
http://www.ajax-usa.com/history/kuper/

Or this:
http://www.ajax-usa.com/desk/ajax-and-t ... issue.html

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Arthur's post

Postby Kowalczyk » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:53 am

Just re-posting this one...
Arthur wrote:Maybe this article from the NY Times is where Braunsta heard about our 'jewish' identitiy?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/28/inter ... ax.html?hp

It's on the front page of their website at the moment.


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keep the 'jew' thing

Postby braunsta » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:17 pm

I did see this in the New York Times, real breaking news, it only took them thirty years to find this story!:)
I just wanted to say a little more on this subject)
As a Jew, (I'm not very religious but take pride in being Jewish) I think its pretty cool. I think the Ajax board has no balls whatsoever. Asking the supporters to stop because it invites anti semitic remarks is like blaming the guy who got his wallet stolen for having so much money in it! Also, I am kind of offended by that posistion, because the club officials kind of make it seem that being jewish is not a big deal so lets just change it to something else. Also, I'm offended that rather then stand up against anti-semitism and eject opposing fans for making such comments at home games, the attitude is to say nothing, but ask that the Ajax fans be the ones to change. Rightly or wrongly, the Ajax supporters chose to call themselves Jews, and its cool if you do it, but realize the seriousness of it, and the responsibility that comes with it. The Ajax board has one thing correct, as a Jew I may not feel comfortable coming to home games, if the other side are going to be saying kill the jews and things like that. HOWEVER, that is the fault of the home team for letting this go on, they have the right to kick out the entire opposing crowd for being unruley if they want. Its also the fault of every other team in football for letting the remarks continue, because it is seriously f--d up that people say that stuff. The anti semitism is already there, the football games just give people an excuse to say it publicly, so changing the identity of Ajax doesnt solve the problem, and won't solve the problem because they opposing fans will say how cowardly "Jews" are now.
anyway, just some thoughts. Go Ajax!
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Re: keep the 'jew' thing

Postby carcajou » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:32 pm

braunsta wrote: Also, I am kind of offended by that posistion, because the club officials kind of make it seem that being jewish is not a big deal so lets just change it to something else.


99% of the crowd is not Jewish, they're just acting like they are, it's a part of the supporters culture. Nothing more, so the club officials don't "make it seem that being Jewish is not a big deal".
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Postby Monkey Tonk » Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:45 pm

Jews aren't rascist; they're simply defending their right to call everyone with an ounce of criticism anti-semitic.

(For the record, I consider every individual a human being, regardless of skin color, religious belief, etc.)
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Postby carcajou » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:40 pm

Dark Horse wrote:Jews aren't rascist; they're simply defending their right to call everyone with an ounce of criticism anti-semitic.

(For the record, I consider every individual a human being, regardless of skin color, religious belief, etc.)


You may consider everybody a human being, but you use one hell of an easy generalization dude.... Saying that they use anti-semitism to attack everybody who disagrees with them is like saying that all Americans are holier-smarter-than-you, obnoxious, self centered assholes or that French people are all always-disagreeing selfish scorny weasels.

I've met a few gringos from across the Ocean in the past few years and I can tell you that they are of the best crop :yes: so you can NEVER use such "shortcuts"...
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Postby Kowalczyk » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:49 pm

Dark Horse: you can't say stuff like that. Really (I totally agree with Carcajou here). Regardless of my personal opinion: please don't push the discussion into that direction, if you know what I mean... Remarks like yours are provocative and are not going to make this a better discussion.

A general request to everyone...

It's perfectly okay to discuss the 'Jewish issue', but let's just try not to turn it into a religious or political discussion. I can guarantee you that the whole thing does not have any such implication to the Ajax fans calling themselves 'Jews', or the rival supporters singing nasty chants. The Ajax supporters are not necessarily pro-Israel or pro-Palestine. They don't give a rat's ass about that whole conflict, in most cases. If they have a firm political opinion about it, it's got nothing to do with Ajax.

The whole thing's completely, utterly and totally non-political and non-religious. It's like... people calling you a stinking farmer because you're from the countryside. And then you decide to turn the whole thing around and start using 'farmer' as a nickname. A name of pride. Even though you've never seen a farm or a cow in your whole life.

That's it, really...

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Postby carcajou » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:11 pm

Kowalczyk wrote:Dark Horse: you can't say stuff like that. Really (I totally agree with Carcajou here). Regardless of my personal opinion: please don't push the discussion into that direction, if you know what I mean... Remarks like yours are provocative and are not going to make this a better discussion.

A general request to everyone...

It's perfectly okay to discuss the 'Jewish issue', but let's just try not to turn it into a religious or political discussion. I can guarantee you that the whole thing does not have any such implication to the Ajax fans calling themselves 'Jews', or the rival supporters singing nasty chants. The Ajax supporters are not necessarily pro-Israel or pro-Palestine. They don't give a rat's ass about that whole conflict, in most cases. If they have a firm political opinion about it, it's got nothing to do with Ajax.

The whole thing's completely, utterly and totally non-political and non-religious. It's like... people calling you a stinking farmer because you're from the countryside. And then you decide to turn the whole thing around and start using 'farmer' as a nickname. A name of pride. Even though you've never seen a farm or a cow in your whole life.

That's it, really...

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Now that you mention it... Do fans from Eindhoven or Hereenven yell "Boeren !! Boeren !!" during games ? :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :D :blush:
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Postby Arthur » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:15 pm

The fans from Eindhoven do. Also, the nickname of De Graafschap is "Superboeren".

As far as political and religious discussions are concerned: they may be out of place in the football part of this forum, but you are all very welcome to discuss serious matters in "Het Debat" a little further down on the main screen.
It's always good to hear how people from other parts of the world look at things.
(It's a Dutch zone, but no one will be offended if you post in English ;))
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Postby Monkey Tonk » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:54 am

Carcajou wrote:
Dark Horse wrote:Jews aren't rascist; they're simply defending their right to call everyone with an ounce of criticism anti-semitic.

(For the record, I consider every individual a human being, regardless of skin color, religious belief, etc.)


You may consider everybody a human being, but you use one hell of an easy generalization dude.... Saying that they use anti-semitism to attack everybody who disagrees with them is like saying that all Americans are holier-smarter-than-you, obnoxious, self centered assholes or that French people are all always-disagreeing selfish scorny weasels.

I've met a few gringos from across the Ocean in the past few years and I can tell you that they are of the best crop :yes: so you can NEVER use such "shortcuts"...


I agree. That's is why I did mention the individual aspect as overruling the generalization. I will always respect anyone as individual. Anyway, just try it as an experiment. Criticize any group of people - white, red, black, purple,-, and Jews. See for yourself who flies off the handle. I'm just tired of any type of 'woundology'; as in using an old wound as a manipulative tool. Enough is enough.

Ko, I understand what you're saying, but I completely disagree. This is a political issue, if only because an Israeli flag to many people represents state terrorism. At least here, any journalist who criticizes Israeli politics is quickly pushed into the antisemetic corner by the Israeli lobby. That is a fact. Go figure.
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Postby Kowalczyk » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:07 am

Dark Horse wrote:Ko, I understand what you're saying, but I completely disagree. This is a political issue, if only because an Israeli flag to many people represents state terrorism.

I guess you are right, but this topic was not started for discussions about that. This thread is about 'Ajax and the Jewish issue' and I hope we can discuss that without starting a discussion about good or bad in the Middle East. And yes, you are right: there is no place here in the English Zone for general political discussions. Only for Ajax discussions and precisely one thread for football discussions that are not Ajax-related.

That's it - and (without wanting to be a sort of Pravda...) there is a reason why we chose for that structure on SoccerPages and here on Ajax Talk.

An international Ajax community is much more diverse than a Dutch Ajax community: we get people from rich countries and from poor countries, from the 'West' and from the 'East', people who are pro-Bush and people who are anti-Bush, Jewish as well as Arabic people. What unites all of them is a football team from Amsterdam named Ajax. That's beautiful and the thing I liked the best about the old Ajax USA forums on Lusenet and SoccerPages was the fact that there was some sort of an unofficial, silent gentlemen's agreement: let's just not get into political discussions.

And, quite simply: I want it to be that way. Therefore, other than in the Dutch zones (where there is a special Debate Zone), one of the houserules here is: no politics. The differences in an international community are simply too big, not only politically, but also in 'debating culture'. If we allow political discussions, in no-time there will be as many conflicts here as there are in the world itself. Which will scare some of the people away who come to Ajax to discuss Ajax - and nothing else.

I belong to that category myself, too, by the way. You will never see me in the Dutch Debat Zone. An internet forum to me is not as large as life itself. I come to Ajax Talk to talk Ajax (and an occasional posting about music or so); the rest I discuss elsewhere. Internet forums, to me, are not a good place for political debate. I know that many Ajax USA people don't want any political discussion, either: I've discussed this with many Ajax USA'ers. What most of them are looking for is a place where they can discuss that one thing they can never discuss at home, or at their local pub, or at work: Ajax.

For that reason, folks: if any of you want to discuss the Israel vs Palestine issue, feel free to do so in the Het Debat Zone of Ajax Talk. You are welcome to speak English there.

Hope this more or less made sense.

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Postby Philippe » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:10 am

it seems to me that the real issue for Ajax is not how the Jews from Holland feel about this so-called "jewish" identity, but the relation with the immigrant population, mainly muslim, who may feel left out (and this is a political issue); and the second thought could be to challenge hard core fans on the subject (and this is not a political issue)
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Postby Monkey Tonk » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:34 am

I respect your opinion Ko. But you don't give these folks a lot of credit. I always like to think that people from diverse backgrounds can enrich and educate each other. Sure, soccer fans can get roudy, but this place doesn't strike me as a warzone at all. Anyway, best of luck keeping things tidy. Not very rock'n'roll though. ;)
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Postby Kowalczyk » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:59 am

Dark Horse wrote: Not very rock'n'roll though. ;)

For that I have other places, too. I wouldn't even know how to be rock & roll on an internet discussion forum... :D

You know what: just regard it as a sort of request (rather than a rule): let's just talk Ajax here.

It was already a request (and not a rule) from the start, I guess: I never deleted anything from this thread (and I probably never will). It was just a request all along, coming to think of it.

Whatever you say about the Israel vs Palestine conflict, it will always be a simplification and it will never do justice to the complexity of the issue. Personally I've come to the point where I'd rather not say anything about it anymore (that is: not here, anyway). Which does not mean you can't discuss the fascinating 'Jewish' aspect of Ajax culture in more of a socio-cultural way (which is the most interesting aspect of it anyway, if you ask me).

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Postby Monkey Tonk » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:02 am

:xyxthumbs:

We're rocking down under. ;)
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Postby Philippe » Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:34 pm

"le monde" in its yesterday's edition publishes an article from the "new york times " about Ajax's jewish identity. Its content does not bring much new information, but it's amazing that the "new york times" would find interest in this issue
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Postby Kowalczyk » Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:14 pm

philippe wrote:"le monde" in its yesterday's edition publishes an article from the "new york times " about Ajax's jewish identity. Its content does not bring much new information, but it's amazing that the "new york times" would find interest in this issue.

Probably this article (it was also printed in the International Herald Tribune):
http://www.iht.com/bin/print.php?file=2 ... /jews.html

We had it up as a news link on Ajax USA. It's now in the News Links archive:
http://www.ajax-usa.com/newslinks/

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